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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.28%
A 161 21.55%
A- 101 13.52%
B+ 83 11.11%
B 58 7.76%
B- 27 3.61%
C+ 40 5.35%
C 38 5.09%
C- 25 3.35%
D+ 11 1.47%
D 13 1.74%
D- 10 1.34%
F 36 4.82%
Voters: 747. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 4 2013, 06:17 AM   #1021
indranee
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

My Name Is Legion wrote: View Post
They didn't bother with dark makeup in TWOK because it wasn't important to anyone by then that Khan had supposedly been Indian.
BINGO.
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Old May 4 2013, 06:20 AM   #1022
gornsky
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

throwback wrote: View Post
I don't like it when character development is sacrificed for the plot or for special effects.
Then you're probably gonna love STID, because it doesn't do that.

I watched Iron Man 3 today. I liked how they depicted the character development arc of Tony Stark and Pepper Potts.
I thought STID is a lot more character-centric than IM3. I love RDJ, and this series is a tour de force for him, but sometimes the quirky comedy overpowers the drama.

I do have a question, which I am crediting to my mother - Supposedly Khan had this blood that could revive life. Bones revives a tribble with this blood, then revives Kirk with Tribble/Khan blood. If Khan had this blood, couldn't have he saved his wife from dying? Perhaps keep her alive, as Mr. Freeze did with his wife until he could find a cure? And, if Khan always had this blood, then how far back does this timeline diverge from the one that we saw in Classic Trek?
As for Q1, the most accurate answer is because this isn't RL, it's a movie. But an intra-universe answer may be that he didn't have the right equipment or medical knowledge.

Q2. Timeline only diverges at the point Nero's ship appeared. Everything else is explained in those terms.
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Old May 4 2013, 06:27 AM   #1023
indranee
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
How do people tan? Melanin. What gives some clines darker skin tones? Presence of more melanin. Remove exposure to sunlight and the skin goes paler. Melanin. In STiD, Harrison's melanin has had different exposure to sunlight to Khan of "Space Seed".
I stand corrected re the gray hair. Could be. Could be.

But, seriously, do you really believe what you wrote above?! You're saying that a few decades spent in the ceti system could have turned Khan's skin as pale as it was in TWOK?

Sigh.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I truly don't get all the handwringing over this stupid topic.
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Old May 4 2013, 06:29 AM   #1024
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

indranee wrote: View Post
throwback wrote: View Post
I am not opposed to change. I was open to each of the series and the films. I am someone who has found something redeeming about the fifth movie - I liked how the trio were depicted as a close knit group of friends. I attempted to be open to Enterprise, but the Temporal Cold War arc left me cold and, I attempted to be open to Voyager, but the lack of interesting stories and character development lessened my interest.

I don't like it when character development is sacrificed for the plot or for special effects. This is a point that TrekMovie raises in their review.

Some of the complaints Abrams’ Star Trek generated have been addressed, yet Into Darkness still plays a bit fast and loose with Trek canon and continues the style of upping the action at the expense of and some character development.
I watched Iron Man 3 today. I liked how they depicted the character development arc of Tony Stark and Pepper Potts. I felt the film had the right balance of action and dialogue. Even minor characters like the kid were given the ability to shine and were given a resolution. And the post-ending credits scene was hilarious. My only complaint is that I wished they mentioned more of what the other Avengers were doing, but I understand why they focused on Stark and this is a minor issue to what I see as a great film. (I have liked the Marvel Universe films. Even the weak ones have something to like.)

I do have a question, which I am crediting to my mother - Supposedly Khan had this blood that could revive life. Bones revives a tribble with this blood, then revives Kirk with Tribble/Khan blood. If Khan had this blood, couldn't have he saved his wife from dying? Perhaps keep her alive, as Mr. Freeze did with his wife until he could find a cure? And, if Khan always had this blood, then how far back does this timeline diverge from the one that we saw in Classic Trek?
That's pretty simple. He never met that wife in this timeline. You do remember how he met his wife in TOS, right? He met her through being revived by the Enterprise crew.

In this timeline, he wasn't revived by the Enterprise crew and so he never meets Marla McGivers. I'm not sure whether she's around or not, or whether Khan is married or not in this timeline. I guess we'll have to keep watching if they bring him back in ST3
He's asking why Khan Prime didn't save his wife on Ceti α V, since he would presumably have the same magic blood as NuKhan. Considering the circumstances, allowing her to die may have been an act of mercy.
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Old May 4 2013, 06:29 AM   #1025
indranee
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

PopBoy wrote: View Post
It was absolutely amazing. Loved every moment of it.
Cool! So you saw it? Would you perhaps be interested in doing a brief review with spoiler tags?
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Old May 4 2013, 06:31 AM   #1026
Therin of Andor
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

indranee wrote: View Post
You're saying that a few decades spent in the ceti system could have turned Khan's skin as pale as it was in TWOK?
I don't recall the Khan of "Space Seed" being all that swarthy?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh

Perhaps his sleeper unit in the Botany Bay doubled as a tanning bed? Perhaps he was always pale, but had a tan before climbing in for the long sleep?


Harrison or Khan? by Therin of Andor, on Flickr
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Old May 4 2013, 06:33 AM   #1027
indranee
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Captrek wrote: View Post
indranee wrote: View Post
throwback wrote: View Post
I am not opposed to change. I was open to each of the series and the films. I am someone who has found something redeeming about the fifth movie - I liked how the trio were depicted as a close knit group of friends. I attempted to be open to Enterprise, but the Temporal Cold War arc left me cold and, I attempted to be open to Voyager, but the lack of interesting stories and character development lessened my interest.

I don't like it when character development is sacrificed for the plot or for special effects. This is a point that TrekMovie raises in their review.

I watched Iron Man 3 today. I liked how they depicted the character development arc of Tony Stark and Pepper Potts. I felt the film had the right balance of action and dialogue. Even minor characters like the kid were given the ability to shine and were given a resolution. And the post-ending credits scene was hilarious. My only complaint is that I wished they mentioned more of what the other Avengers were doing, but I understand why they focused on Stark and this is a minor issue to what I see as a great film. (I have liked the Marvel Universe films. Even the weak ones have something to like.)

I do have a question, which I am crediting to my mother - Supposedly Khan had this blood that could revive life. Bones revives a tribble with this blood, then revives Kirk with Tribble/Khan blood. If Khan had this blood, couldn't have he saved his wife from dying? Perhaps keep her alive, as Mr. Freeze did with his wife until he could find a cure? And, if Khan always had this blood, then how far back does this timeline diverge from the one that we saw in Classic Trek?
That's pretty simple. He never met that wife in this timeline. You do remember how he met his wife in TOS, right? He met her through being revived by the Enterprise crew.

In this timeline, he wasn't revived by the Enterprise crew and so he never meets Marla McGivers. I'm not sure whether she's around or not, or whether Khan is married or not in this timeline. I guess we'll have to keep watching if they bring him back in ST3
He's asking why Khan Prime didn't save his wife on Ceti Α V, since he would presumably have the same magic blood as NuKhan. Allowing her to die may have been the merciful choice, given what the Ceti eels had done to her brain.
Okay, but it's also possible that in THIS timeline, something may have been done to Khan's blood to make it "magic". Do we have an answer to that yet? Or is that one of those unspoken givens?
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Old May 4 2013, 06:34 AM   #1028
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
indranee wrote: View Post
You're saying that a few decades spent in the ceti system could have turned Khan's skin as pale as it was in TWOK?
I don't recall the Khan of "Space Seed" being all that swarthy?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Khan_Noonien_Singh

Perhaps his sleeper unit in the Botany Bay doubled as a tanning bed? Perhaps he was always pale, but had a tan before climbing in for the long sleep?
There is a definite difference in the two skin tones.

I'd go for the tanning bed idea
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Old May 4 2013, 07:05 AM   #1029
Ryan8bit
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

There's no answer for why he's white now, and no such answer will make sense anyways. This is just one of many things that illustrates that this is a reboot. Khan is a white guy now despite whatever was said in the past or whatever seemed to make sense.

And I mean, it's obvious that they at least started to go for someone who had a darker skin tone at first in the casting process. They even went strangely far enough to mostly look exclusively at Latinos, for whatever sense that makes. At some point in the process they just said, "Fuck it, the skin color isn't important to us." All they wanted was a good actor.

They wanted to make sure that they got that, and in doing so they fulfilled the pale, deep-voiced, British white male villain cliche. They whitewashed him clean and now don't have to bother with the whole Middle Eastern guy is a terrorist thing.
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Old May 4 2013, 07:15 AM   #1030
Captrek
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]



I can buy it, except for the blue eyes.

Last edited by M'Sharak; May 4 2013 at 05:32 PM. Reason: hotlinks
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Old May 4 2013, 07:15 AM   #1031
gornsky
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I took Therin's point the other way around.

Presumably just before Khan was incarcerated for The Long Sleep, he was roaming around the sub-continent, gaining a healthy tan. After years on Ceti Alpha, that tan disappeared.

But the whole "whitewashing" debate. How did Star Trek fans come to this?
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Old May 4 2013, 07:40 AM   #1032
Ryan8bit
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

gornsky wrote: View Post
But the whole "whitewashing" debate. How did Star Trek fans come to this?
Realistically I think part of it comes from something similar to what I once heard Robert Zemeckis say (and this is paraphrased): It's difficult to create sequels to things because many fans have already created their own adventures and expectations in their own minds. It's hard to top that.

Make of that what you will.
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Old May 4 2013, 07:48 AM   #1033
gornsky
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

In many forums, it seems more like a racism debate. It's not PC to complain about a "black" actor taking a role that may traditionally have been filled by "white" actors, but there is a fierce anger about casting a "white" actor (man, I hate this discussion) in a role that was traditionally held by someone of colour (and I don't include Spanish RM here). Perhaps the intention of the posters is noble, they presume they are defending the rights of black actors. But it's all just racism to me.

I just assumed this was colour-blind casting (a practice perhaps more common in Britain than the US) and that the job went to the most impressive candidate. There may even have been some sensitivity around pushing the idea of sub-continental terrorists at this time in our history. But after that, I didn't think any more about it. The vehemence of the debate has shocked me. Maybe I'm missing something.
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Old May 4 2013, 08:11 AM   #1034
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Well, there's definitely a bit of that sprinkled in as well. To me, that's not as important, because of my own personal background (and I don't really like that particular discussion either). On that particular point it's that I'd rather see the embracing of diversity, not more white males, especially straight British ones. Someone had pointed out that every movie villain since Khan had indeed been portrayed by a white person (although we did at least have a couple women, even if they were secondary). It just seems odd.

And like, it's only nitpicking. It's akin to people wondering where the black people were in Star Wars. You can still love it and be entertained by it and still wonder why it ends up being that way. Some people here just seem to paint it with a very broad brush where it's all or nothing, as if a white Khan is like a make-or-break thing for the movie or that people lose sleep over it or something. While that's possibly the case for some, that's definitely not the case for me. I'll be there opening night, and I still remain excited to see it.
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Old May 4 2013, 08:12 AM   #1035
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

How you know you're in an alternate timeline: everyone's eyes are blue. Just ask Data.
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