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Old May 4 2013, 01:51 AM   #181
Potemkin_Prod
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
^^ Have you compared all the TOS room / cabin numbers seen on screen? <snip> Whatever "logic" seems to suggest, it's apparently not working the way you assume it.
On the contrary, I'm not assuming anything. However, your reply is full of "suggested," "believe arose from a misinterpretation," "assuming," "enables us to assume," "as we've just seen there's not enough space," "wouldn't correspond," "Apparently," "could stand for," "find it hard to believe that," and other such language.

I just think you're overanalyzing visual evidence that is contradictory at best, and at worst is meant to provide a wonderful canvas for story telling, rather than detailing the floor plan of the ship.

Don't get me wrong; I'm admiring the work you're putting into this immensely, but I think you're allowing your assumptions about Deck 3, 4, 5, etc. to bog you down. The numbers on the doors could simply be "comm numbers" for the quarters (as suggested by 3C 42 being on the side of Kirk's command chair).
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Old May 4 2013, 11:26 AM   #182
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

@GSchnitzer

Wonderful! Many Thanks.

Potemkin_Prod wrote: View Post
On the contrary, I'm not assuming anything.
Since the nomenclature you presented doesn't match the observed facts, it was obviously an assumption. Presented with the observed facts you now arrived at a conclusion that is compatible with the observed facts.

Potemkin_Prod wrote: View Post
However, your reply is full of "suggested," "believe arose from a misinterpretation," "assuming," "enables us to assume," "as we've just seen there's not enough space," "wouldn't correspond," "Apparently," "could stand for," "find it hard to believe that," and other such language.
Rather than to make final statements or dealing in absolutes I prefer an open-minded approach that illustrates or leaves rooms for options. The goal is to get a deck plan reproduction that is optimal in terms of onscreen-accuracy and onscreen-compatibility. I already realized that it's better to have two corridors of equal length on Deck 5, it's better to move Janice's cabin from "Charlie X" to the port side and at least I should give it a try to illustrate a Deck 3 with Pike's cabin (at the expense of the LB corrior, obviously).

I usually try to avoid making statements I'll regret later.

Potemkin_Prod wrote: View Post
I just think you're overanalyzing visual evidence that is contradictory at best, and at worst is meant to provide a wonderful canvas for story telling, rather than detailing the floor plan of the ship.
You're entitled to your opinion, and in case there's any misunderstanding I also feel that the stories are more important and the essence of Star Trek than floor plans of starships. But I do have a soft spot for it and think that credible floor plans will essentially add to the stories and the believability of what we saw on screen.

Where I object is this "contradictory at best" as this is among these lines "they didn't know what they where doing". Since fans making such claims had not been eye-witnesses to the actual production they do not know, therefore such statements are a show of despicable disrespect for the fine people that brought us Star Trek and usually this is just a lame excuse for not doing in-depth research.

Check out the "Jud Taylor Conection": He was the director of "Wink of an Eye" (# 68), "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" (# 70) and "The Mark of Gideon" (# 72).

In WE the briefing room set was converted into Environmental Engineering with pipes extending to the decks above and below, leaving little space on one side of the (enlarged) set other than for a stairway of the deck above (or below).
In LB we then saw the obvious existence of a Rec Room 3 on two decks (4 & 5) which indicated the existence of a stairway connecting these two decks. And finally, in MG we obviously saw this stairway in use when Kirk carried Odona out of the room, apparently coming from the upper deck(s).

Now either that's a colossal coincidence or a clear hint that the DP and Matt Jefferies were giving more thought to such details than most fans usually assume.

One thing that's really driving this project is the amount of convergence I constantly discover in little details just as the aforementioned one which I think are worthy to justify my lengthy text comments.
The basic assumption (and that's all it can ever be) is that the producers knew exactly what they were doing and it's our "job" to reconstruct that knowledge.

Potemkin_Prod wrote: View Post
Don't get me wrong; I'm admiring the work you're putting into this immensely, but I think you're allowing your assumptions about Deck 3, 4, 5, etc. to bog you down.
No need to worry. Since I have to assume (...) that you're not roaming the Trek BBS just to find fault with others, I take your remarks in the positive sense, i.e. that you showed interest and concern. That's exactly the kind of feedback I'd like to see more often, especially if it enables me to rethink an idea or theory. While this is still the stage of heavy WIP I'd eventually like to arrive at a set of deck plans that's palatable to most trekkers.


Potemkin_Prod wrote: View Post
The numbers on the doors could simply be "comm numbers" for the quarters (as suggested by 3C 42 being on the side of Kirk's command chair).
Yes. Especially considering Kirk's cabin in "The Conscience of the King" was "3F 121" while the close-by sections they ordered to be sealed off were "C4" and "C5".

Therefore, things like "3F" probably indicate power grids or the like, but not sections. That's the kind of constructive feedback I'm talking about...

Bob
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Old May 5 2013, 12:01 AM   #183
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Here is a conjectural theory inspired by the discussion:

After the pilots they came up with a nomenclature how to use the door signs, where “3F 125” stood for grid 3F on Deck 12 and cabin 5 (Mudd’s cabin in “Mudd’s Women” / # 4).

I believe the outside of Kirk’s cabin in this episode (“Deck 12”) had the door sign “3F 121” but we didn’t get a chance to see it (similar story like with “Recreation Room 6” in “Charlie X”. We never saw the door sign outside but in later episodes it suddenly popped up).

When they shot “The Enemy Within” / # 5 they put Rand’s cabin on “Deck 12”, too, but only recycled the “3C 46” and thus the problems began, someone possibly criticized why “3F 125” hadn’t been used instead.

For “Charlie X” / # 8 they redesigned the set outside of Rand’s cabin to fix the mistake from “The Enemy Within” to place it on grid 3C on Deck 4 and cabin 6 (the Season One studio set’s “environmental” ladders only had one direction: Up. Deck 4 is the only deck with the uncompromised main corridor radius having no deck above for this ladder to go to! It’s amazing they went through the hazzle of covering it up, but that just shows their attention to detail).

But then someone remembered that the cabin was supposed to be on Deck 12 and so instead of “3C 46” the door sign of Harry Mudd’s cabin (“3F 125”) was recycled, although her “new” cabin was supposed to be on Deck 4.

After such confusion they possibly felt they probably couldn’t ensure proper use of the door signs throughout the series and decided to focus on other issues instead.

Just an idea.

Bob
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Old May 5 2013, 01:26 AM   #184
blssdwlf
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

So basically the meaning of the signs are only known to the crew of the ship and their appearance and location is so arbitrary that it defies any explanation we can come with? I can buy that.
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Old May 5 2013, 09:11 PM   #185
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Not that arbitrary that it defies any explanation.

To me, at least, it would make sense if the first two letters were some kind of power grid. Assuming there is a malfunction in the grid or maintenance required, it would be more efficient to announce shipwide "There's gonna be repair / maintenance work in grid 3F on Main Deck 5 between 1000 and 1300 hours tomorrow".

Cabin occupants should immediately know whether their cabin is affected or not - by simply looking at the numbers on their door sign (if they haven't memorized these already).

Essentially, this grid locator could serve as an alternative to sections where to locate certain areas in the ship (currently, I'd say "3F" indicates the port side in the saucer).

Despite what may or may not have been intended for the other digits of the door signs these seem to indicate room numbers.

Thus room "3F 123" (the door sign of the unseen room next to the brig in "Turnabout Intruder") could be somewhere between Kirk's cabin "3F 121" in "Journey to Babel" and Spock's "3F 125" in "Amok Time".

Bob
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Old May 5 2013, 09:19 PM   #186
blssdwlf
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

I guess Kirk's chair is on grid 3C42 but the other parts of the bridge is on 3F100 ?
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Old May 7 2013, 01:19 PM   #187
Mytran
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Would now be a good time mention the other type of cabin designation? Specifically, "cabin 341" mentioned in Obsession.
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Old May 8 2013, 12:16 AM   #188
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

^^ It's always a good time for more TOS observations.

Either Janice and Spock had the same cabin in TOS and the corridor outside underwent reconstruction (same applies for Kirk's cabin in "The Conscience of the King" versus his cabin in "Journey to Babel") or the first number simply indicates what kind of class the cabin is.

Because Garrovick held the rank of ensign, I've always wondered why he enjoyed the luxury of the typical officers cabin.
However, if he only had the third class cabin # 41 ("341") I could better live with that.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't this the first time in Season Two where the cabin's door sign only has a name but no numbers?
Same applies for Kirk's cabin in "The Mark of Gideon" and Uhura's in "Elaan of Troyius".

The one thing that still puzzles my mind is the "Personnel Records" door sign next to Kirk's bedroom in "The Mark of Gideon".
Did they decide to put the personnel records under Kirk's mattress after the Nomad Incident?

Bob
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Old May 8 2013, 01:44 PM   #189
Mytran
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Many of the locations for rooms are puzzling - a lot of the 2-room cabins are squeezed between other "working" parts of the ship, not in a dedicated accommodation section as you might expect (and indeed directed to by the signs, such as the oft seen "OFFICER'S QUARTERS")

As for Garrovick it is still a puzzle, as he seems to have just as much space as Kirk (the second area of the cabin is visible in one scene). So, what makes it third class?

Although he does hold the rank of Ensign, he seems to be a high level security officer in the episode (and Rand got her own cabin). Maybe that is why he gets a room to himself?
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Old May 8 2013, 02:26 PM   #190
blssdwlf
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

I figure that the cabins squeezed between other "working" parts of the ship falls in line with the idea of a packed ship of equipment with crew squeezed in. It reminds me alot of old navy ships that had bunk beds next to equipment.

I'm not sure "3" could be third-class as it does look very similar to other cabins. We don't get a good look into the second area though. Is it a work area like Rand's cabin? Or a second bed and he has a roommate?
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Old May 8 2013, 04:48 PM   #191
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
I figure that the cabins squeezed between other "working" parts of the ship falls in line with the idea of a packed ship of equipment with crew squeezed in. It reminds me alot of old navy ships that had bunk beds next to equipment.
The use of the briefing room studio set as a room of "environmental engineering" could suggest that, but "Wink of an Eye" would be the only episode where they put the set to engineering use.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
I'm not sure "3" could be third-class as it does look very similar to other cabins. We don't get a good look into the second area though. Is it a work area like Rand's cabin? Or a second bed and he has a roommate?
I absolutely hope so. The office desks use up a lot of valuable space so ideally only senior officers or the captain's yeoman should be able to use them.

Oh, these OFFICERS QUARTERS direction signs. How many different ones do we have?
The one from "Day of the Dove" read " 6F-24 66-38 ", others read " 6F - 53 77-99 ".

Apparently these show up on almost every deck of the saucer. Either you have officers quarters on all crew decks or stairways or the like leading to these and on other decks. I find it increasingly difficult to rationalize these for the deck plans.

Bob
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Old May 16 2013, 06:50 AM   #192
kennysmith
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

hello to this person, how would you like to help in my project of trying to build a web page for everyone who want to get a real star ship off the ground of starting with a web page?.
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Old May 16 2013, 12:16 PM   #193
Robert Comsol
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

Thanks for the invitation, but first I need to finish this project, and I've already fallen behind my own set schedule. I hope I'll be able to present a saucer deck template for Decks 4 thru 8 this weekend.

Bob
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Old May 16 2013, 08:32 PM   #194
Albertese
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

4 through 8! Boy howdy! I'm excited...

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Old May 17 2013, 02:42 AM   #195
kennysmith
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Re: Kirk's Television Enterprise Deck Plans WIP

i like on what you are doing can you tell me this have you got this in your hands of this, it is a star trek role playing game of the star ship of the enterprise ncc 1701?. if you don't have them i can give you a copy of them. the game is out of print.

i just wonder if you can turn that plan into a 3D web page? of all of the decks?.
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