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Old May 3 2013, 09:56 PM   #61
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

^ No no no, I'm supposed to be sending YOU flowers!
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Old May 3 2013, 10:16 PM   #62
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

^You're the one who supposedly died.
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Old May 3 2013, 10:52 PM   #63
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Getting back on topic...and I do apologize for derailing the thread, anyone who wishes to chastise me may do so now : I'm not sure I even agree with the very concept of teaching a 5-year-old how to shoot a gun. But then again, I'm not a dad, so what do I know. As soon as these parents finish explaining to this 5-year-old child how he killed his sister, they should be locked up, that's what I think. Total carelessness on their part.
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Old May 4 2013, 12:24 AM   #64
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

is it bad that I read Carelessness as Cardassianness?
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Old May 4 2013, 12:52 AM   #65
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Data Holmes wrote: View Post
Owain Taggart wrote: View Post
Reminds me of a story I read a long time ago. Must have been in 2009, where a father took his kid out to a gun fair and let him shoot what must have been a semi-automatic, and the kid couldn't handle the recoil and wound up shooting himself.
It was a full auto, it was in Mass I believe. The father signed the permission waver and the kid was with a trained instructor at the firing line.
You say that as if it clears up the whole issue and like there's nothing bizarre or misguided about a father wanting his young son to fire a fully automatic weapon. You can't even use the excuse of teaching the kid hunting or home defense for that. What purpose does a child, much less an adult who's not in the military or law enforcement, have with a full auto weapon?
I said that because I remembered the details. I don't think it was right, and I don't think the little kid should have been shooting it.

However, I have no problems with adults shooting, or owning a full-auto or burst firing firearm.


Owain Taggart wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Data Holmes wrote: View Post

It was a full auto, it was in Mass I believe. The father signed the permission waver and the kid was with a trained instructor at the firing line.
You say that as if it clears up the whole issue and like there's nothing bizarre or misguided about a father wanting his young son to fire a fully automatic weapon. You can't even use the excuse of teaching the kid hunting or home defense for that. What purpose does a child, much less an adult who's not in the military or law enforcement, have with a full auto weapon?
+1 . Fully agree. I didn't want to make any assumptions about it being fully automatic or not since I couldn't remember any details, but knowing that it was indeed a fully automatic weapon makes the situation even worse. There shouldn't be any reason for this kind of thing to happen in the first place. Ever. It's totally irresponsible for the parent to be putting the kid in danger like that, trained instructor or not.
Indeed.


Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
It seems strange that Kinder Surprises (Kinder Eggs) are banned in the USA because they are considered dangerous and yet there are such things as children's guns.
I totally agree. Banning those eggs was totally stupid and pointless.


Miss Chicken wrote: View Post
It seems strange that Kinder Surprises (Kinder Eggs) are banned in the USA because they are considered dangerous and yet there are such things as children's guns.
Guns (unfortunately) have a much more powerful lobby than candy eggs with a toy inside.

People need to disavow themselves of the idea that everything happens uniformly in a country this big and this diverse with a dedication to individual and state autonomy. I'm sure the same people who advocated for banning candy eggs as a choking hazard would also not want kids to have access to guns. But they don't get to make all the laws. They can only pressure Congresspeople or state legislators to pass the laws they want, with varying degrees of success.
Your country is able to have a uniform law when when it comes to choking hazards so I don't think it should be impossible to pass a law prohibiting either the manufacture of children's guns or else a law setting an minimum age (maybe about 10 or 12) at which a child can use a gun.

In Australia guns control was a state issue, and we also have a powerful gun lobby, but we were able to reach agreement on banning certain guns. I admit we only have 6 states and 22 million people but the laws we reached agreement on were much stronger laws than just banning guns for small children.

You must have some federal laws that relate to the manufacture/importation of certain items (beyond a federal law that forbid eggs that contain toys).
why must you always try and pimp your country's draconian gun laws as not only being a good thing but something other countries should emulate?
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Old May 4 2013, 01:14 AM   #66
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Well, if we wanted to protect children from things that are killing them in large numbers we would ban children from riding in cars, and then ban cars because for every child who gets shot (usually by gang bangers or adults on rampages), a dozen are run over in the street. Every day about six kids die in auto accidents and about 700 are injured.
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Old May 4 2013, 01:37 AM   #67
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Our laws aren't draconian. it is quite easy to get a gun licence in Australia, as easy as it is to get one in many US states. it is easier in Tasmanian than most other states because people here usually knows someone on a rural property who will let you use details of their property as the place where you can use the gun for hunting or vermin control, if one cannot do that they only have to prove that they belong to a shooting organisation, or that they are a bona fide collector.

There is a total of 122,800 registered firearms in Tasmania, our population is around 500,000. This is the highest rate in Australia, an I believe it is higher than Canada, and slightly less that Norway. It is more than 6 times the rate of of gun ownership in the UK.
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Old May 4 2013, 01:42 AM   #68
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
Well, if we wanted to protect children from things that are killing them in large numbers we would ban children from riding in cars, and then ban cars because for every child who gets shot (usually by gang bangers or adults on rampages), a dozen are run over in the street. Every day about six kids die in auto accidents and about 700 are injured.
Personally I am not csuggesting for guns to be banned, just not letting young children (under about the age of 10) use them. The USA does not allow young children to get driving licences.

Once a child is old enough to understand the permanence of death than that is the time to start giving them access to guns.

Last edited by Miss Chicken; May 4 2013 at 02:07 AM.
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Old May 4 2013, 01:43 AM   #69
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
Well, if we wanted to protect children from things that are killing them in large numbers we would ban children from riding in cars, and then ban cars because for every child who gets shot (usually by gang bangers or adults on rampages), a dozen are run over in the street. Every day about six kids die in auto accidents and about 700 are injured.
And to that argument I can only repeat: Cars are not designed to kill - they are designed to move people from one place to another. They can kill, yes, but are not specifically MADE to kill. Guns, however, have no other function in life but to kill.
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Old May 4 2013, 01:45 AM   #70
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

gturner wrote: View Post
Well, if we wanted to protect children from things that are killing them in large numbers we would ban children from riding in cars, and then ban cars because for every child who gets shot (usually by gang bangers or adults on rampages), a dozen are run over in the street. Every day about six kids die in auto accidents and about 700 are injured.
Yes, and then we can all go back to riding horses until we have to ban them because every day sixty kids are tossed from the horses, and after that we can go back to walking until we have to ban that because of the rampant mountain lion attacks, and then we'll all be back in our cars again until we finally get cheap, reliable jet packs.

Cars and guns are not a reasonable comparison in purpose, frequency of use, or necessity of ownership.

The analogy also falls through since we apply all kinds of restrictions, registration requirements, and regulations upon car manufacturing, ownership, and use, whereas any attempts to discuss the same with guns nowadays immediately comes up against the brick wall of the NRA lobby.

We couldn't even get a watered down "expanded" background check bill through the Senate when the vast majority of the US population supported it. We even have bullshit fearmongering about UN Arms Trade Treaties that have nothing to do with domestic gun ownership. It's a disgrace.
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Old May 4 2013, 02:39 AM   #71
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

I think Charlie Pierce pretty much dots the "i" in the summation of his piece in Esquire:

"Up with this, I no longer have to put. If your "way of life" involves handing deadly weapons to five-year olds, your way of life is completely screwed up and you should change it immediately because it is stupid and wrong. (And, again, also, too: goddammit, "learning to use and respect a gun" means at least knowing that the fking thing is loaded when it's sitting in the corner of the parlor like it's a damn umbrella stand or something, and we should talk about that part, too.) It is not in any way "normal" to hand a kindergartner a firearm. If a mother from the inner-city of, say, Philadelphia did that, and the kid subsequently shot his sister to death, Fox News never would stop yelling about the crisis in African American communities and the Culture Of Death, and rap music, too. If your culture is telling you that children who have only recently emerged from toddlerhood should have their own guns, then your culture is deadly and dangerous and that should concern you, too. If your culture demands that, in the face of a general national outrage over the killing of other children, your politics work to loosen the gun laws you have, as they apparently did in Kentucky, then your culture is making your politics stupid and wrong and you should change them, too. I do not have to understand these people any more, and it is way too early in the day to be drinking this much."
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Old May 4 2013, 03:48 AM   #72
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
The analogy also falls through since we apply all kinds of restrictions, registration requirements, and regulations upon car manufacturing, ownership, and use...
Those only apply to cars driven on roads. None of those things come to play for non road driving. That car restriction analogy would only work in connection with something like concealed carry, not simple ownership.
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Old May 4 2013, 09:59 AM   #73
Locutus of Bored
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Data Holmes wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
The analogy also falls through since we apply all kinds of restrictions, registration requirements, and regulations upon car manufacturing, ownership, and use...
Those only apply to cars driven on roads. None of those things come to play for non road driving. That car restriction analogy would only work in connection with something like concealed carry, not simple ownership.
I bet you think that was a really good argument.
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Old May 4 2013, 10:30 AM   #74
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Tora Ziyal wrote: View Post
I grew up playing cowboys and Indians in the 50's. What I remember totally breaking my little heart was never getting one of these.
Annie, get your gun.
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Old May 4 2013, 11:59 AM   #75
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Re: 5 year old given rifle as gift, kills 2 year old sister

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
gturner wrote: View Post
Well, if we wanted to protect children from things that are killing them in large numbers we would ban children from riding in cars, and then ban cars because for every child who gets shot (usually by gang bangers or adults on rampages), a dozen are run over in the street. Every day about six kids die in auto accidents and about 700 are injured.
Yes, and then we can all go back to riding horses until we have to ban them because every day sixty kids are tossed from the horses, and after that we can go back to walking until we have to ban that because of the rampant mountain lion attacks, and then we'll all be back in our cars again until we finally get cheap, reliable jet packs.

Cars and guns are not a reasonable comparison in purpose, frequency of use, or necessity of ownership.

The analogy also falls through since we apply all kinds of restrictions, registration requirements, and regulations upon car manufacturing, ownership, and use, whereas any attempts to discuss the same with guns nowadays immediately comes up against the brick wall of the NRA lobby.

We couldn't even get a watered down "expanded" background check bill through the Senate when the vast majority of the US population supported it. We even have bullshit fearmongering about UN Arms Trade Treaties that have nothing to do with domestic gun ownership. It's a disgrace.
And even then, if cars were to be invented today in our current mindset, they wouldn't make it on the streets. Everyone would look at the risks and tell you how insane it was to let everyone at the age of 16, 18 or 21 drive vehicles that weigh at least two tons, can move as fast as average 240 km/h and carry explosive fuel. And they would be right.

What happened with cars and guns is the frog in the water effect. Tiny changes in temperatur, over a long time, and the frog will never recognize that he actually gets boiled to death. But if he's taken out of cold water and exposed to boiling hot water, he'd jump out of it immediately.


BUT the main difference is: cars are tools for transportation. Guns are tools for killing. Nothing else. Of course you can use a car as a weapon as well, but you can't use a gun in any other useful way than to threaten and to kill other beings. And there's no single valid reason why a civilian needs such a tool.
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