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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 24 2013, 03:46 AM   #136
trevanian
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Re: Revisiting the films...

Good filmmaking can get around that. Look at RED OCTOBER. You're at the end of Act 2 and the subs are kind of 'talking' ... and then you have a title on screen saying something like '20 hours later, the laurentian abyss' and you go right on with things.

If you did that wrong, it would be a dead stop for the movie, but they handled it properly. Then again, that was McTiernan on a very good stretch of days (which he has not enjoyed thus far this century.)
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Old April 29 2013, 01:58 AM   #137
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Re: Revisiting the films...

Warped9 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
It brought some of the fun factor of TOS to the big screen outings.
Yes, I can't argue that. It's part of that, through the characters, that works for this movie and makes it bearable.
TSFS has really grown on me after many viewings.

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Old April 29 2013, 05:05 PM   #138
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Re: Revisiting the films...

Rothschild wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
It brought some of the fun factor of TOS to the big screen outings.
Yes, I can't argue that. It's part of that, through the characters, that works for this movie and makes it bearable.
TSFS has really grown on me after many viewings.

"How many fingers am I holding up?" "That's not very damn funny."

the film taken by itself is pretty good. My issue with it is that it's basically a giant reset button, and they only got a limited number of TOS films, I wish they'd done an original story rather than "Star Trek III: undoing the last ten minutes of Wrath of Khan."
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Old April 29 2013, 07:33 PM   #139
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Re: Revisiting the films...

TSFS is the Jan Brady of Star Trek films. It's a fun movie in its own right, with many memorable moments, but it's the under-appreciated middle film in the trilogy, stuck between its much more popular sisters!
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Old May 2 2013, 02:17 AM   #140
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Re: Revisiting the films...

Warped9 wrote: View Post
While we scrutinize the Trek films even after so many years you gotta wonder what the Enterprise crew watch for entertainment.



McCoy: "Dammit, Jim! There's nothing worth watching this evening. Nothing but reruns."

Kirk: "Shut up, Bones, I haven't had time to see a lot of these."


And the series we never saw...


The top group made me laugh, especially with the caption.

The bottom group made me cry. I miss Star Trek, I watch the episodes and remember, but there will never be any new Star Trek again and that's sad. Sorry to be such a downer. I really wanted to add some comments and I congratulate you on your movie review thread, but those New Era opening credits are beautiful and create such a longing in me that I really can't adequately express here. Thank you.
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Old May 2 2013, 02:27 AM   #141
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Re: Revisiting the films...

^^ It's a similar sentiment that motivated me to create those images in the first place.

Somewhere I have images that look like a collection of screencaps from New Era episodes that never actually existed.
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Old May 2 2013, 05:41 AM   #142
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Re: Revisiting the films...

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
TSFS is the Jan Brady of Star Trek films. It's a fun movie in its own right, with many memorable moments, but it's the under-appreciated middle film in the trilogy, stuck between its much more popular sisters!
I've probably spent more time complaining about SFS than I have TheAbramsThing(s) and 21st Century Bond put together (which is a whole lot of bitching, believe me!)

But I just watched it again a few minutes ago and didn't nod off or fast forward. In fact, except for the 'klingon bastards' line , it worked emotionally all the way through. It's still megadumb, but I'm BEGINNING to understand why people make excuses for it. The things I hate I still absolutely hate, but there was no blood pressure rise ... this time.
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Old May 3 2013, 01:43 PM   #143
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Re: Revisiting the films...

I just watched III and IV for the first time in many years, a few days apart. To me IV is just not aging well, relative to III.

The rhythm of IV is misshapen. The threat-to-Earth scenes at the beginning feel like they go on forever, with needless insertions (sorry, Majel) of a character called simply "Chapel" saying lines anyone could have said. The middle part is lots of fun, but Kirk has just lost his son and shouldn't be having so much fun (I'm well aware that in the real world 2.5 years passed between theatrical releases of III and IV). And the whale/probe conversation also seems unending.

I am not about to start reediting the movie, nor would I do so without being able to replace the music in any event. But somewhere in there is a movie I would actually enjoy seeing again.

By contrast, I found that I could forgive III its weaknesses. First-time director, middle chapter of longer story, etc.
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Old May 3 2013, 03:57 PM   #144
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Re: Revisiting the films...

trevanian wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
TSFS is the Jan Brady of Star Trek films. It's a fun movie in its own right, with many memorable moments, but it's the under-appreciated middle film in the trilogy, stuck between its much more popular sisters!
I've probably spent more time complaining about SFS than I have TheAbramsThing(s) and 21st Century Bond put together (which is a whole lot of bitching, believe me!)

But I just watched it again a few minutes ago and didn't nod off or fast forward. In fact, except for the 'klingon bastards' line , it worked emotionally all the way through. It's still megadumb, but I'm BEGINNING to understand why people make excuses for it. The things I hate I still absolutely hate, but there was no blood pressure rise ... this time.

Can you name some of your specific criticisms? I'm curious.
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Old May 3 2013, 05:36 PM   #145
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Re: Revisiting the films...

I'm headed out the door to the doctor right now, but will be back at you with this in a few hours.
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Old May 4 2013, 12:11 AM   #146
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Re: Revisiting the films...

EDIT ADDON: my thoughts on SFS failings, dumbnesses, wrong turns, all in no particular order ... I'm sure there are plenty of things I'm missing or going light on, but like I said, this last time I really enjoyed the movie all the way through, so I must be mellowing ...

Your ship is dead. The planet below is inhabited by armed klingons, and apparently is blowing itself up. There's a ship with only a couple people on it parked right next to you. Most of them are going to be dead when they come aboard your ship. So what do you do? beam to the other ship and take it over, then be in a position to rescue those down below, dictating terms to the surviving armed baddies down there? No, let's beam down to the exploding planet, then try to talk the reasonable-minded guy who just killed another starship and your son into bringing you up.
This is just one of several bits in SFS that are just recycling similar scenes in TWOK but giving them slightly different spins ... and it shows how you can reuse bits, but by doing so out of context, you're guaranteed to not achieve the same effect. 'You're going to have to come down here' in TWOK becomes, 'you're going to have to bring us up there to get it." Likewise, the RELIANT sneak attack scene plays out in SFS with the major deviation being Greedo -- sorry, the Enterprise shooting first. I think dramatically recycling the same bits with tiny spins is the dramatic equivalent to Meyer's take on tracking in pre-existing music to your film, that it is like getting kissed over the telephone. Diminished effect, to be sure.

The worst for me is the fact Kirk doesn't SEE his son killed. You can justify Kirk's reaction -- but to do so he needs to see it, not hear Saavik have to say the dramatically unplayable 'Admiral ... David is dead" line. You can justify a vidfeed from GoogleGenesis or from a klingon tricorder on the surface or however, but put it up there on the big viewscreen and let him see it happen. There are times when visual discretion is wonderful, but this is TREK's big SPACE OPERA film, with planets blowing up and sturm and drang ... the hero shouldn't be performing histrionics on the basis of what amouts to being a singing telegram.

As far as that goes, the interim between when the Enterprise automatics fail and when the self-destruct stuff happens ... shouldn't Scotty be doing his miracle worker thing for real right then, running down with Chekov and Sulu and trying to load a torp manually?

The whole 'backing out' of dock aspect was a really blown opportunity ... if you're going to do it that way, with the doors just BARELY opening in time, then Sulu should have had to rotate the whole ship through a quarter barrel roll to minimize the ship's profile while those doors were opening. A huge missed opportunity to do a real cliffhanging moment, instead of just playing at it and then cutting away to miss what should have looked like a similar moment in GALAXY QUEST and STARSHIP TROOPERS.

Spacedock - the idea of putting such a terrestrial-based concept in space is utterly STAR WARS, not Trek. Whether the spacedock interior really was just the deathstar2 reactor model or not (not inclined to going into that one again), it certainly LOOKS like it. More of the bigger-is-better bullshit, no notion of 'my what a big target I am' or how silly it is to put doors on a structure like this, just so they can fail. ILM started designing the TREK universe (even props!) with this one, and it was pretty much all wrong IMO. It's not just aesthetics either ... it takes you out of a movie if you see something that looks like it should be getting strafed by a star destroyer in a TREK movie ... or it should, anyway.

More trivial ones ...

The idea the ship is too old, when we're at most a decade or 12 years past the refit (don't bother quoting Okuda for the 'official' year, I don't buy that any more than the notion that the refit is a constitution -- it is ENTERPRISE-class.) More arbitrary plotting based on need to steer story a particular way without regard for legitimacy of notion.

The idea that Spock would stop aging because he was moved away from the genesis effect has from day 1 sounded as preposterous as anything else about Genesis. What, does that mean if Spock gets near green protomatter he'll suddenly start aging again? It just sounds like contrivance on top of contrivance, and arbitrary as hell.

Here's one I'll include apart from the others, because I don't know that it is dumb (it certainly works dramatically, and forms the basis for the remaining TOS pics in terms of making them seem very contemporary) ... the idea that Federation and Starfleet are so fucking paranoid about Genesis that they are throwing these guys under the bus and watching their every move and saying things like, "i don't think you ought to be discussing this subject in public." That's about what I'd expect from the US navy in 1967, when they told the crew of the LIBERTY that they couldn't discuss who it was that strafed them with machine gun fire and napalmed them and then torpedoed them after machine gunning all their lifeboats. The unevolved Federation from SFS onward in the TOS films -- even Nimbus III in TFF, because apparently that was designed to fail -- isn't just at odds with Roddernberry, but with a legitimate democracy in general. It isn't like section 31 is doing some black ops thing ... we're talking about spying on citizens and denying them freedom of expression. And it isn't even a specifically Starfleet thing, so it isn't like 'obey my order' ... the guy who takes McCoy in is FEDERATION security, not Starfleet.
All of that would be fine if they had kept Sowards' notion for TWOK ... that Starfleet had just abandoned the 'boldly go' policy in favor of just holding onto and protecting the systems they had, and that Kirk at 50 had his midlife crisis because everything his career was about was being discarded. So you'd have known this was a future that was reverting back more toward what we had ... and it would have been interesting if over the films the originally 'boldly go' got reinstated in part through the efforts and sacrifices of these guys. But that TWOK backstory didn't happen, which makes what follows seem arbitrary as all get-out to me.

My wife pointed out that some of the inexplicable reversals from TWOK to SFS (specifically Kirk going from 'I feel young' to "the death of spock is an open wound.") is kinda understandable given that grief is not a linear process ... you don't necessarily get better and better, you could have off days. So again, I'm being a little more forgiving.
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Old May 4 2013, 01:12 AM   #147
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Re: Revisiting the films...

gottacook wrote: View Post
with needless insertions (sorry, Majel) of a character called simply "Chapel" saying lines anyone could have said.
The missing scene, of course, was Chapel escorting Sarek to the Council Meeting. "You're not too late, Ambassador". It was in the comic adaptation. A nice little acknowledgement of the Spock/Chapel encounters in TOS, and that Chapel had been missing from ST II and III.

Cameos by Kyle (ST II), Rand (STs III and IV) and Chapel aren't "needless insertions" for fans of those characters.
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Old May 4 2013, 02:04 AM   #148
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Re: Revisiting the films...

I was a huge fan of Kyle in the series (thought he demonstrated more personality than Sulu), but geez, his TWOK bit looks like an outtake and has no business being in the final cut. Turn and hold profile ... hold ... ARGHHH! It's like they brought somebody in from Super-8 parody or something.
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Old May 4 2013, 02:27 AM   #149
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Re: Revisiting the films...

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Cameos by Kyle (ST II), Rand (STs III and IV) and Chapel aren't "needless insertions" for fans of those characters.
I hadn't heard about the extra Chapel scene - was it written but not filmed? By "needless" I simply meant she was given no dialogue that was meaningful to the story or revealing of her as a character - practically no dialogue at all, for that matter.

trevanian wrote: View Post
The worst for me is the fact Kirk doesn't SEE his son killed. You can justify Kirk's reaction -- but to do so he needs to see it, not hear Saavik have to say the dramatically unplayable "Admiral ... David is dead" line.
Unplayable is right, especially if your character is supposed to be some kind of Vulcan. But as far as seeing him killed, we don't even see that Saavik sees him at that moment. Was Nimoy reluctant to show the actual killing? Was it scripted to occur offstage? Or was it filmed but edited out later for some reason? I don't recall this being addressed on the TSFS commentary track (which I enjoyed, for Robin Curtis' contribution among others).
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Old May 4 2013, 02:51 AM   #150
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Re: Revisiting the films...

gottacook wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Cameos by Kyle (ST II), Rand (STs III and IV) and Chapel aren't "needless insertions" for fans of those characters.
I hadn't heard about the extra Chapel scene - was it written but not filmed? By "needless" I simply meant she was given no dialogue that was meaningful to the story or revealing of her as a character - practically no dialogue at all, for that matter.

trevanian wrote: View Post
The worst for me is the fact Kirk doesn't SEE his son killed. You can justify Kirk's reaction -- but to do so he needs to see it, not hear Saavik have to say the dramatically unplayable "Admiral ... David is dead" line.
Unplayable is right, especially if your character is supposed to be some kind of Vulcan. But as far as seeing him killed, we don't even see that Saavik sees him at that moment. Was Nimoy reluctant to show the actual killing? Was it scripted to occur offstage? Or was it filmed but edited out later for some reason? I don't recall this being addressed on the TSFS commentary track (which I enjoyed, for Robin Curtis' contribution among others).
Just a wild theory: Maybe there was some concern about protecting the film's PG rating? Perhaps having David murdered onscreen might have been judged as too intense?

(Note that in Wrath of Khan, the bit where Khan tortures and slaughters the staff at the space station also occurs offstage. Perhaps for the same reason?)
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