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Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

View Poll Results: Grade "Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS"
Geronimo! 39 33.05%
Good 46 38.98%
Average 24 20.34%
Not worth salvaging 7 5.93%
This episode should have stayed in the center of the TARDIS 2 1.69%
Voters: 118. You may not vote on this poll

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Old May 2 2013, 04:04 AM   #256
Venardhi
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

You're forgetting the Doctor one, with the hand melted/stuck to its face.
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Old May 2 2013, 04:07 AM   #257
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

Slugboy wrote: View Post
Stoo wrote: View Post
Remember something else that bugged me. That bit in the Engine Room about people not being able to touch each other or time.. reasserts itself? And they fast forward to zombie status?
I just figured out this whole "no touching" rule now. The Doctor wasn't saying that people shouldn't touch each other in general. Rather, he was specifically addressing the two Van Baalen brothers (Gregor and Tricky the "android&quot, telling them that they shouldn't touch each other. Here's why:

There were three zombie creatures...a standalone zombie creature, and two zombie creatures that were always connected together (like they were conjoined twins). The Doctor refers to the standalone creature as "she", which I figure means he has a pretty good idea it is future Clara. Therefore the twin creatures must be Gregor and Tricky. In order for the twin creature to form, Gregor and Tricky had to be holding onto each other to be fused together like that. The Doctor figures that if the two brothers don't touch each other, there is no way the twin creature could be formed at the moment (since it must be formed at some future time when they are touching), and hence it would delay the formation of the twin creature (preventing the already-occurred timeline from occurring). Notice that once Gregor and Tricky do touch each other (when Gregor grabs Tricky by the arm) they burn and fuse together to form the very twin creature. (this is Time re-asserting itself)

I agree, it's not the greatest reasoning, but I think that was what the writer had in mind when he wrote the scene.
There are three zombies, the twin, one holding its face, and the last which has both hands free. So, yes, I'd say The Doctor comes to that realization when he sees the creature holding its face in the same way he is after telling Clara about how he'd been trying to save her.
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Old May 2 2013, 12:14 PM   #258
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
DalekJim wrote: View Post
Of course, the Looms have absolutely nothing to do with romance one way or the other and you'd know that if you had indeed read the books you're referencing. It's just a strange, alien way that Time Lords reproduce, which is fine as they're aliens and shouldn't have the same biology and mating culture as us.
The hell they don't. Admittedly, it is my own opinion, but I have always felt that the Looms were devised just to cement the long held theory by some segments of fandom that Susan was not--despite all evidence on screen to the contrary--the Doctor's biological granddaughter
I don't get it? The Looms confirm that The Doctor and Susan are biologically related. It's just that Time Lords reproduce differently to us.

I prefer The Doctor's sexuality to be ambiguous and alien, rather than that of a traditional romantic leading man. It makes him more interesting and helps him stand out from the other main heroes out there.

If "The Doctor's greatest secret" ends up being a reference to The Other I'll give Moffat a fuckton of praise.
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Old May 2 2013, 01:00 PM   #259
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

Except the Loom crap is just that. I know Who canon is not like Trek canon, but I disavow Lungbarrow as having any connectiion with the truth of Who. Looms are for the Loons.
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Old May 2 2013, 02:12 PM   #260
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

DalekJim wrote: View Post

I don't get it? The Looms confirm that The Doctor and Susan are biologically related. It's just that Time Lords reproduce differently to us.
Technically yes, but with a twist. In the series, Susan was The Doctor's granddaughter. End of discussion. In the NAs Time Lord's are loomed and don't have children or grandchildren (Because of some curse). Susan is The Other's granddaughter. She is "biologically related" to the Doctor because the Other threw himself into the Looms (For reasons that make little sense) and was re-loomed/re-incarnated as The Doctor. This has the nice effect of making them related, sort of, and making sure that the Doctor never had any of that icky sex with a girl.
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Old May 2 2013, 02:29 PM   #261
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

Photoman15 wrote: View Post
Except the Loom crap is just that. I know Who canon is not like Trek canon, but I disavow Lungbarrow as having any connectiion with the truth of Who. Looms are for the Loons.
Well, dismissing Lungbarrow wouldn't make much difference as it isn't even the book which introduced the looms. Helps if you actually read the literature you have a strong opinion on! I recommend it, as Lungbarrow is a very strong, evocative story from one of Doctor Who's best ever writers. Not the weird anti-sex manual that people here seem to picture.
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Old May 2 2013, 07:24 PM   #262
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

I first got into Doctor Who fandom in 2006. Seems like a lifetime ago for me, but some people have been in it a lot longer than that. Once “initiated,” I soon began to hear the most common and discussed opinions on the classic series and its various spin-offs, including the Virgin New Adventures. Possibly the first I ever heard of them were about the Looms, devices used to “weave” genetic material into fully formed adult Time Lords rather than having children the conventional way. It’s something of an understatement to point out just how hated these things were and indeed are. “The stupid books in the mid-90s changed too much! They hated the idea of the Doctor having sex in any way whatsoever, so they made Time Lords not be able to have sex and Susan not his granddaughter!” is a general summary of what’s brought up anytime someone mentions the Looms. Many people haven’t read the primary* book that deals with them, Lungbarrow, because looms exist in it and I’ve even seen people who won’t go near the entire NA range all together because of the looms.

At first, I bought into this thinking, hook, line, and sinker. I myself was loomed out of early RTD Who so of course the Doctor was a sexual person and to say he doesn’t have sex is silly. Of course Susan is his actual granddaughter. Of course Time Lords just have sex and have babies; what the heck were these people’s problems to make such a convoluted system just so the Doctor would remain someone who can never have sex? Then, sometime down the line, I did the smart thing. I actually read Lungbarrow. And all of a sudden, everything made sense. Much of what I had been told about the Looms was straight-up misinformation, exaggeration, and distortion.

So a while ago, I decided to write-up a list of things that one should be aware of when discussing the Looms and how many of them differ from what you might hear said about them.

1. Lungbarrow is a damn fine novel in its own right. Beyond anything else, even if you don’t like the particular idea of the Looms, that doesn’t mean you may not like the novel or shouldn’t give it a try. It’s not a front-to-back manual on the inner workings of some fictional machines. It’s a wonderfully surreal mystery, loaded with atmosphere and ideas flying at you from every direction, that has the Gothic sensibilities of the Hinchcliffe era, the straight-up weirdness from the 60s, and a common similarity to Ghost Light (unsurprising, since Ghost Light was rewritten from a planned TV version of Lungbarrow). You may hate the Looms just as you did the day before, but still think it’s a great book in its own right.

2. It doesn’t mean the Time Lords don’t have sex. The Looms are not the natural or “normal” way for Time Lords to reproduce. It’s a loophole to get around all Time Lords being prevented from having biological birth. The books take the show’s idea that in the early Rassilon days of Gallifrey, the universe was a weirder, more magical place, full of darkness and superstition, and that the Time Lords, led by Rassilon, helped to eradicate it, even on their home planet. As described in Time’s Crucible, the early rulers of Gallifrey were a matriarchal group of soothsayers, but before they left and were replaced by the days of an engineer-as-founder-of-society, some of that early universe magic was used to curse all Gallifreyans with sterility. The Looms were the response, a new and logically efficient way of having kids. But that has nothing to do with having sex! It just has to do with the actual reproductive process, but guess what, loads of people have sex for reasons other than to start the reproductive process and in many cases, actively trying to prevent its occurrence while still performing the act. And more to the point, it is actively shown in the story to be a Bad Thing that things have gotten this out of hand, and by the end of Lungbarrow, the curse is lifted and Leela becomes pregnant with Andred’s baby, shown unabashedly as a Good Thing. It’s hardly shown by the author as an awesome and kick-ass way to make people without that whole stupid sex thing, which the Doctor never has. Ah, which reminds me…

3. It doesn’t mean the Doctor doesn’t have sex. For some reason, people are convinced the reasons the Looms were created because it would finally prove once and for all that the Doctor is asexual. Now, I gather that back when it first came out, there were quite a lot of people who wanted the Doctor to be an asexual figure only and who therefore promoted the theory as “proof,” although since I’ve been in fandom, I’ve seen waaaaaaay more people mention and complain about those people than I’ve seen those people themselves. But the Doctor having sex, or not having, sex is a complete non-sequitur to the Looms. As already said, the Looms doesn’t mean Time Lords aren’t born equipped with genitals or that they’re incapable of sex; simply childbearing. Even more importantly, the very next book after Lungbarrow has the Doctor have sex with someone off camera. If it really was some master plan to remove sexuality from the Doctor all together, why would Rebecca Levene let Lance Parkin put that in the very next book? There’s no evidence this is what Marc Platt or anyone else had on their mind.

4. Why the Looms were actually created. Okay, so if it isn’t the fan myth that “They were created to get rid of any sexy Doctor notions!” then why were the Looms created? First, let’s go to what Marc Platt’s actually said on the matter, via his introduction to the once available online version of Lungbarrow:

Marc Platt, author (Ghost Light, Cat's Cradle: Time's Crucible, Lungbarrow) wrote:
I had been woken at 5 AM one morning by the idea of the family and the living house. The last thing the Doctor’s family could be was obvious. He comes from an alien planet, however terrestrial (and British) its inhabitants appear, so I was determine to get away from any Earth-style 2.4 children sort of family. It had to be strange, yet familiar too. The idea I woke up with arrived in such detail that I got quite feverish, unable to get it written down fast enough. One Loom, forty-five Cousins, two Drudges and one very grumpy House were all in place along with their hierarchy and their terrible fate.
Simple! The Doctor’s an alien, he was going to write a story about the Doctor’s family, and he decided to create an alien family rather than just do what was expected. Also, it conveniently solves a question about how a society of near immortals who can live for thousands of years could go on for millennia without overpopulation (certainly, anytime we’ve seen Gallifrey on screen, it’s looked a little… bare).

5. Susan is still his biological granddaughter (technically). This is the other big issue when it comes to Lungbarrow, Susan. Now, obviously, a family system without parents/grandfathers is going to leave Susan looking like a loose end. But unlike, say, Eric Saward who once wrote a piece saying Susan was descended from Rassilon and had no relation to the Doctor whatsoever, Marc Platt specifically goes out of his way to try and justify both concepts; the Doctor is from a family of 45 Cousins and Susan is his granddaughter. It’s all tied in with another early Rassilon era idea from the Cartmel era (when Lungbarrow was first thought-up), that the Doctor was Rassilon and Omega’s associate and fellow partner, a version commonly referred to as “The Other.” It’s a clever way to both justify the faces shown in The Brain of Morbius (because within the context of the story, it’s obviously earlier Doctors and not Morbius himself as is commonly hand-waved away) while still having Hartnell’s Doctor be the “First Doctor.” At the end of his life, the Other threw himself into the Looms and was later “rewoven” as the Doctor, who grew up not knowing who he was before. When Hartnell leaves Gallifrey, he does the impossible and visits an earlier point in Gallifrey’s history, where he meets Susan. Given that these are those early days, she is the biological granddaughter of the Other. The First Doctor has no memory of her (or anything from his Other days), but she distinctly and assertively knows he’s the exact same person as her grandfather, even if he’s in a different incarnation. Is this more complicated than what’s shown in An Unearthly Child? Absolutely! But isn’t it all? We’re not told they’re Time Lords, we’re not told they’re from Gallifrey, Susan openly says to have made up the name TARDIS (a claim more credible post-The Deadly Assassin if she truly was from the early days of Gallifrey)… Yes, it’s perhaps overly complicated in order to squeeze in both ideas… but what matters is that Platt easily could’ve just had Susan be some random Time Lord the Doctor decided take longer and were later brainwashed into thinking they were related or something, but he explicitly has Susan be his granddaughter and even if he doesn’t remember the incarnation that “made” her, the Doctor her grandfather.

If you’ve read all this… and especially if you’ve actually read Lungbarrow… and still dislike the idea of the Looms, that’s fair enough. Everyone’s got different tastes and one person’s favorite story is another’s least favorite. But if you’re just ragging on them because of what you’ve “heard” about them from second-handed sources (including this, I suppose!), do yourself a favor and try to read the damn book and figure out where you stand yourself.

*Bonus question:

6. Why is it Lungbarrow that gets all the hate and not Time’s Crucible? It is, after all, the book the Looms came from and yet whenever they’re discussed, you hardly hear anyone mention that it came from that first and then was only elaborated on in Lungbarrow.

If you're a loon for liking the Looms, then the mad have taken over the asylum. XD
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Old May 2 2013, 07:35 PM   #263
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
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He's also, you know, married and stuff.
See above. The wedding was symbolic at most...
As opposed to what? The Doctor can't get married now unless he hunts down some legal documents from Gallifrey and finds a Time Lord judge to put a stamp of approval on it?

Whatever. My point is that the Doctor is in a fucking intimate relationship. Sure he flirts and whatnot, just like River does with anything that has a pulse, but he's not the type of person to go and actually cheat. Physically or emotionally. And yes, it's a very unconventional marriage, but what do you expect from the Doctor? Nevermind that he gets incredibly uncomfortable and quickly-changes-the-subjecty whenever flirting gets too intense.

It's like you guys have this really weird idea of who and what the Doctor is as a person, then get pissed off because you start making random shit up to go with it. It's mind boggling. The Doctor is married and the Doctor is an inherently good and moral person. He's not some scumbag sex fiend trying to fuck everyone he meets.
I love the implication anyone who isn't monogamous is a "scumbag sex fiend."
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Old May 2 2013, 08:41 PM   #264
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

Ah, "Lungbarrow" -- currently £1500 new or £86 used on Amazon. I don't think I'll be reading it anytime soon.
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Old May 2 2013, 09:22 PM   #265
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

This is response to Nagisa Furukawa's post, which is too lengthy to quote.

I can only speak for myself, but I was an avid fan of the Virgin NAs and generally enjoyed them. I even enjoyed many of the mysterious glimpses we got of the Doctor's past in the novels tied to the Masterplan. I disliked the idea of the Looms as soon as they first appeared in Time's Crucible, mostly because they seemed like yet another attempt to make Susan something other than the Doctor's granddaughter (most of these attempts were fan rationalizations, but not all (lest we forget the Lady Larn). I don't know what the creators' rationale was, but I do remember the glee that some fans took in the confirmed asexuality of the Doctor at the time. Lungbarrow was a book that I had looked forward to for some time, but found it very lacking after all the great buildup by authors such as Lance Parkin. It wasn't an awful book, but just "meh" in my opinion.

But all of this is really moot since the 96 TV movie and the new series have contradicted the existence of the looms anyway. The 96 TV Movie had The Doctor mention his parents & there have been several references to his having been a parent/grandparent (Which I know some have interpreted as a memory of The Other's parents/kids/grandkids), but the clincher--for me--was the flashback to the Master as a child (Since the Looms supposedly spit out fully grown Gallifreyans) and the mention in The End of Time to the Master's father.

So, while I have enjoyed certain aspects of the Masterplan, both in the McCoy era and the VNAs and wouldn't mind some of those threads picked up, I am not a fan of the Looms and the convoluted explanation of Susan's relationship to the Doctor that came out of it.
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Old May 2 2013, 09:35 PM   #266
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
This is response to Nagisa Furukawa's post, which is too lengthy to quote.

I can only speak for myself, but I was an avid fan of the Virgin NAs and generally enjoyed them. I even enjoyed many of the mysterious glimpses we got of the Doctor's past in the novels tied to the Masterplan. I disliked the idea of the Looms as soon as they first appeared in Time's Crucible, mostly because they seemed like yet another attempt to make Susan something other than the Doctor's granddaughter (most of these attempts were fan rationalizations, but not all (lest we forget the Lady Larn). I don't know what the creators' rationale was, but I do remember the glee that some fans took in the confirmed asexuality of the Doctor at the time. Lungbarrow was a book that I had looked forward to for some time, but found it very lacking after all the great buildup by authors such as Lance Parkin. It wasn't an awful book, but just "meh" in my opinion.

But all of this is really moot since the 96 TV movie and the new series have contradicted the existence of the looms anyway. The 96 TV Movie had The Doctor mention his parents & there have been several references to his having been a parent/grandparent (Which I know some have interpreted as a memory of The Other's parents/kids/grandkids), but the clincher--for me--was the flashback to the Master as a child (Since the Looms supposedly spit out fully grown Gallifreyans) and the mention in The End of Time to the Master's father.

So, while I have enjoyed certain aspects of the Masterplan, both in the McCoy era and the VNAs and wouldn't mind some of those threads picked up, I am not a fan of the Looms and the convoluted explanation of Susan's relationship to the Doctor that came out of it.
Well put!

It would be amusing if Moffat put a weird twist to all this by having Clara's mom or dad be River's kid by the Doctor. What with one Clara having the same birthday as the start of the series and being the same age as the first run, having the new Clara as the new grand daughter should crack the Internet fan boards pretty effectively.
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Old May 2 2013, 09:45 PM   #267
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

I don't remember the fact that the Looms made fully-grown Gallifreyans? If that's the case, you also have the Doctor's cot and the story that the Third Doctor tells about being a boy.
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Old May 2 2013, 09:48 PM   #268
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
I don't remember the fact that the Looms made fully-grown Gallifreyans? If that's the case, you also have the Doctor's cot and the story that the Third Doctor tells about being a boy.
Speaking of, I nearly started crying when Clara opened that one door in this last episode and the Doctor's cot was sitting there. I miss the Ponds.
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Old May 3 2013, 08:51 AM   #269
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

Me too, although it was the right time for them to leave (actually the right time for them to leave would have been at the end of series 6). Doesn't stop me missing them though.
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Old May 3 2013, 09:52 AM   #270
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Re: 7X10 Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS(Grading/Discussion)(SPOIL

With the references popping up, Amy's book, the cradle, it's not impossible for Clara to be a grandchild or great grandchild of Amy and Rory.
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