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Old May 1 2013, 01:12 PM   #361
Count Zero
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Nobody has been insulted, nobody plays some stupid "my party is better than yours" game or whatever.

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Anti-intellectualism is by the way most frequently encountered on the right.
.
You have to admit horatio83, you were being deliberately snippy there. The only thing that prevented the statement from being actually insulting is that no one could possibly take it seriously.



Let's drop this particluar side discussion. There's no need to reheat this.
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Old May 1 2013, 01:32 PM   #362
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
In order for your future society based upon this volunteerism to work over an extended period of time, the society you've described can never change. Not even over the course of centuries.

Which seems unlikely.
I'm not seeing how this is truly 'a problem' You seem to be saying that in order for it to persist, it must persist. That's kind of trivial, no?
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Old May 1 2013, 03:05 PM   #363
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Star Trek is no different. The characters grew up in a post-scarcity environment where one didn't have to work to get the basic necessities, but where "bettering yourself" was the primary goal.
Societies do change over the course of history, sometime quite rapidly. So it is possible to imagine Humanity (or some portion of it) changing into the type of society where "bettering yourself was the primary goal." The problem is Sonak, what happen when the society changes yet again?

You could envision a future society that had changed into a "all volunteer" system. People would volunteer their time, efforts and skills without anticipation of compensation. Goods would come from a machine or a individual/craftsman who would "donate" to you whatever you wish, the same with various donated services.

But again, societies and cultures do change over time. Most (not all) would agree that certainly during the TOS time period money/compensation existed. There is no indication as to how long the "spirit of volunteerism" had existed (if it even did) prior to Encounter At Farpoint. In the time period of TNG-DS9-VOY you're only talking about a fourteen and a half year time interval in Human history, just as you can't tell how long the spirit of volunteerism had existed, you also don't know how long it will last.

In order for your future society based upon this volunteerism to work over an extended period of time, the society you've described can never change. Not even over the course of centuries.

Which seems unlikely.

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Nobody has been insulted, nobody plays some stupid "my party is better than yours" game or whatever.

***

Anti-intellectualism is by the way most frequently encountered on the right.
.
You have to admit horatio83, you were being deliberately snippy there. The only thing that prevented the statement from being actually insulting is that no one could possibly take it seriously.




there are two components to what I was saying:

1. yes, a new culture of "volunteerism" and "social contribution" would emerge, BUT you forgot the important other part:

2. post-scarcity As I and others have pointed out, it's really the technological utopianism of Star Trek's future, not its social environment, that allows its "moneyless society" at least some possibility


once again, even if you're right, and a chunk of society decides "screw volunteerism, I'm going to lay on the couch and eat flamin' hot cheetos and drink root beer," SO WHAT? It's a society of abundant resources. We have large people now who "live on the dole" in some way or another and it hasn't brought the market economy crashing down.


So some folks will reject volunteerism. This would not be the disaster that "ruins paradise" that you and others seem to think. Actually, many left-wing writers have taken into account in theorizing what a "utopian society" would look like, that some would reject it. And it's not really that big of a deal.
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Old May 1 2013, 06:21 PM   #364
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Count Zero wrote: View Post
Yes, and I said that in my post. But there's a difference between that and going off on tangents. Just try to maintain a link to the overall topic in your posts and it's fine. I hope the examples above give you a better idea of what I meant.
Yep, I understand that you guys wanna keep politics in the TNZ. What about merely talking about the economics of Trek without delving into political economy, is this OK?
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Old May 1 2013, 08:37 PM   #365
Count Zero
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Yes, sure.

Discussing politics is also ok in Miscellaneous, by the way (but with tighter rules ).
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Old May 1 2013, 09:05 PM   #366
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

sonak wrote: View Post
once again, even if you're right, and a chunk of society decides "screw volunteerism, I'm going to lay on the couch and eat flamin' hot cheetos and drink root beer," SO WHAT? It's a society of abundant resources. We have large people now who "live on the dole" in some way or another and it hasn't brought the market economy crashing down.
If anything it's always too many people pursuing too much that inflates bubbles and causes crashes. The next big one is everyone irrationally cramming into higher education thanks to government loans. I'd rather a big chunk of those people be on basic welfare. I bet it would cost less than the inevitable bailouts.
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Old May 1 2013, 09:17 PM   #367
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Count Zero wrote: View Post

Let's drop this particluar side discussion. There's no need to reheat this.
Indeed. It can also be eaten cold.
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Old May 1 2013, 09:25 PM   #368
horatio83
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
But again, societies and cultures do change over time. Most (not all) would agree that certainly during the TOS time period money/compensation existed. There is no indication as to how long the "spirit of volunteerism" had existed (if it even did) prior to Encounter At Farpoint. In the time period of TNG-DS9-VOY you're only talking about a fourteen and a half year time interval in Human history, just as you can't tell how long the spirit of volunteerism had existed, you also don't know how long it will last.
Kirk didn't work as Starfleet captain because the pay has been so good that he could retire early or buy that nice apartment with a view over the San Francisco bay. He was actually pretty miserable while he lived there and had more luxuries than ever before: more living space, a comfortable desk job. And he was miserable again when he was in the Nexus, a happiness machine. Kirk worked and died (the very opposite of hedonism) as captain because it was his "first, best destiny".
You cannot state it more clearly via the biography of a fictional character that hedonism and happiness (in the sense of immediate fulfillment of your dreams) are not that important. Here is my favourite philosopher talking about the issue.

If I remember it correctly having witnessed the horrors on Tarsus IV made the guy become captain. And while these altruistic and idealistic motives were surely always present he became simply used to it over the time and didn't feel at ease doing anything else (TWOK, GEN), i.e. not only selfless and idealistic people tick like Kirk.

You come from a military background so tell me why people do this soldier job, only for the money or also because there are notions like honour, duty, serving the country and so on? The Kirks are not utopian, they are all around us. Every workaholic I personally know is addicted to the job and not the money that comes along with it (not to mention that working hard doesn't always lead to more income).
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Last edited by horatio83; May 1 2013 at 09:35 PM.
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Old May 2 2013, 12:52 AM   #369
Nightdiamond
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

But how did Kassidy Yates worked to better herself and the rest of humanity? It looks like she was working as a freighter to get paid. She ended up helping the Maquis and going to prison for it.

Throw Harry Mud in the mix. What was his motivation? He didn't need to scheme and swindle people, but that's exactly the lifestyle he chose. Or Vash from TNG.

It's like they needed to add a sense of adventure to their lives or something.

Imagine after all the human struggling to free itself of poverty and want, feeling guilt because you can have all the food and knick knacks absolutely free from a dispenser
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Old May 2 2013, 01:29 AM   #370
horatio83
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Mudd was a crook and I hope that he would be viewed as this in any kind of society.
Trek never implied that there will be no power-hungry or greedy people anymore, it just showed a society in which this was not socially acceptable behaviour.

Your last paragraph shows what this is about, Puritanism, feeling guilty because you have not worked hard enough. If you feel guilty you have ample opportunities in the world of Trek to sustain this replicator paradise. You could e.g. enlist in Starfleet and take the night shift in engineering to exorcise your guilt feelings.
This is a serious point. Calvinism is about the paradox of freedom, predestination made people work like crazy, realize their fate so to say. And this lunatic stuff became the basic ideology of capitalism (back in the days). I have no idea how anybody could claim that the idea that people work to "better themselves and the rest of humanity" is more crazy than this.
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Old May 2 2013, 02:16 AM   #371
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

horatio83 wrote: View Post
This is why I liked the uniforms from ENT. The show was in general trying to be the most realistic one which is IMO not per se an asset in fiction. Perhaps a slight lack of realism like in TOS and TNG is actually useful to make a Trek show good?
I wish the the uniforms from ENT could be used in a new TV show or movie; I think that they would work better than the current ones. But that's just me.
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Old May 2 2013, 02:31 AM   #372
sonak
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Mudd was a crook and I hope that he would be viewed as this in any kind of society.
Trek never implied that there will be no power-hungry or greedy people anymore, it just showed a society in which this was not socially acceptable behaviour.

Your last paragraph shows what this is about, Puritanism, feeling guilty because you have not worked hard enough. If you feel guilty you have ample opportunities in the world of Trek to sustain this replicator paradise. You could e.g. enlist in Starfleet and take the night shift in engineering to exorcise your guilt feelings.
This is a serious point. Calvinism is about the paradox of freedom, predestination made people work like crazy, realize their fate so to say. And this lunatic stuff became the basic ideology of capitalism (back in the days). I have no idea how anybody could claim that the idea that people work to "better themselves and the rest of humanity" is more crazy than this.

and of course we have tons of people now, who are financially secure who continue to work. Athletes, movie stars, successful CEOs, those who've inherited money, etc. Obviously, they get satisfaction, not from the MONEY, but about something from the job-authority, a sense of doing good, the socializing, because they have fun, because it lets them be creative, etc.

Again, the question: why would this be any different in the future? It would just be everyone in society in this position, rather than a few.
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Old May 2 2013, 02:50 AM   #373
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

A lot of his more fuzzy-minded ideas -- the whole "there is no commerce and no money" thing, which DS9 finally pretty much jettisoned -- were eyeroll-inducing, but don't necessarily qualify as his worst.

His biggest weakness was probably that he was a dirty old man. And he hurt Trek the most when he let the horndog parts of him overwhelm the enlightened parts. Luckily, others managed to rein him in before Marina Sirtis ended up having to spend seven years wearing an extra breast. (Or would it have been two extras? I can't remember.)
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Old May 2 2013, 02:52 AM   #374
horatio83
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
This is why I liked the uniforms from ENT. The show was in general trying to be the most realistic one which is IMO not per se an asset in fiction. Perhaps a slight lack of realism like in TOS and TNG is actually useful to make a Trek show good?
I wish the the uniforms from ENT could be used in a new TV show or movie; I think that they would work better than the current ones. But that's just me.
I also love them but would zippers look futuristic enough for the 23rd century? I doubt it, like all in ENT the uniform was made to look like something we can relate to in order to create a retro-feel.
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Old May 2 2013, 03:28 AM   #375
sonak
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

tafkats wrote: View Post
A lot of his more fuzzy-minded ideas -- the whole "there is no commerce and no money" thing, which DS9 finally pretty much jettisoned -- were eyeroll-inducing, but don't necessarily qualify as his worst.

His biggest weakness was probably that he was a dirty old man. And he hurt Trek the most when he let the horndog parts of him overwhelm the enlightened parts. Luckily, others managed to rein him in before Marina Sirtis ended up having to spend seven years wearing an extra breast. (Or would it have been two extras? I can't remember.)

when did DS9 jettison it? They seemed to embrace it(with Jake referencing it) even while they were mocking it a little bit.
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