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Old May 1 2013, 04:36 PM   #631
Melakon
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

M wrote: View Post
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M wrote: View Post
You see, I never understood how people could view the situation in "Tuvix" that way. . .
Easy. I never took an Ethics course.
And neither did I. I like to think, however, that it's kind of basic to view killing an innocent as immoral.
All right, here's a different answer which might explain my position better. I wrote that last one right before going to bed (it was almost 2am).

My first response perhaps a dozen pages back was as Janeway, the captain, if there was even a remote chance to get my two men back, I would have done anything in my power to accomplish that. People immediately jumped on me for the comment because it wasn't what they wanted to hear.

In real life, no, I would not advocate murder of an innocent to save two others. But in terms of the science fiction premise, I don't see the definition of murder as even applicable here. Gov. Kodos seems to approach it like I do. If Tuvix had been presented as a Thing With Two Heads, this wouldn't even be an issue.
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Old May 1 2013, 04:44 PM   #632
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
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There's all the moral difference in the world between an accident that was no one's fault and willfully murdering someone against their will.
Agreed.
And when you don't deconstruct Tuvix once you know how to restore Tuvok and Neelix, then you have murdered them. The questioning point is not the accident, but later when the ability to restore two people to the bodies that they in fact own. To not do so is not only murder, it is most likely against the law. The right to your own body is the argument and not who is murdering who.
That's the moral equivalent of saying it's murder not to harvest someone's organs against their will to save the lives of two terminally ill patients.
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Old May 1 2013, 05:08 PM   #633
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Another problem I have with some of the arguments being presented is somehow comparing the Tuvix situation with abortion, which I don't understand at all. Here in the United States, I also have a big problem with legislators who want to define a fetus as a human being, or the killing of an unborn child as murder. If that's the case, why aren't potential parents allowed to declare that unborn child as a tax deduction?
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Old May 1 2013, 05:26 PM   #634
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Melakon wrote: View Post
M wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post

Easy. I never took an Ethics course.
And neither did I. I like to think, however, that it's kind of basic to view killing an innocent as immoral.
All right, here's a different answer which might explain my position better. I wrote that last one right before going to bed (it was almost 2am).

My first response perhaps a dozen pages back was as Janeway, the captain, if there was even a remote chance to get my two men back, I would have done anything in my power to accomplish that. People immediately jumped on me for the comment because it wasn't what they wanted to hear.

In real life, no, I would not advocate murder of an innocent to save two others. But in terms of the science fiction premise, I don't see the definition of murder as even applicable here. Gov. Kodos seems to approach it like I do. If Tuvix had been presented as a Thing With Two Heads, this wouldn't even be an issue.
Isn't that the same argument Maddox used against Data being the property of Starfleet? "If it was a box on wheels I wouldn't be facing this opposition."
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Old May 1 2013, 05:27 PM   #635
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Melakon wrote: View Post
My first response perhaps a dozen pages back was as Janeway, the captain, if there was even a remote chance to get my two men back, I would have done anything in my power to accomplish that. People immediately jumped on me for the comment because it wasn't what they wanted to hear.
No. People disagreed with you because they disagreed with you.
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Old May 1 2013, 05:47 PM   #636
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post

Agreed.
And when you don't deconstruct Tuvix once you know how to restore Tuvok and Neelix, then you have murdered them. The questioning point is not the accident, but later when the ability to restore two people to the bodies that they in fact own. To not do so is not only murder, it is most likely against the law. The right to your own body is the argument and not who is murdering who.
That's the moral equivalent of saying it's murder not to harvest someone's organs against their will to save the lives of two terminally ill patients.
Except the evidence we saw shows these two persons were not terminally ill. Their so call illness was a result of an accident. No fault of their own. They are sentient people, and they have a long standing claim on the property in question. Tuvix is not the donor in this situation he is the recipient.

It is more like a sniper taking out someone holding two people hostage.
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Old May 1 2013, 05:50 PM   #637
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote:
Isn't that the same argument Maddox used against Data being the property of Starfleet? "If it was a box on wheels I wouldn't be facing this opposition."
Is it? I don't see them as the same issue.

teya wrote:
No. People disagreed with you because they disagreed with you.
All right, perhaps I misinterpreted their responses.

In any case, I never should have entered the thread in the first place because I'm apparently approaching the episode from a viewpoint not in tune with the arguments being presented.

I'll stay out of it from here on, and sorry for bothering anyone.
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Old May 1 2013, 05:53 PM   #638
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I said equivalent. Yes it was an accident. Yes it was no fault of Tuvok and Neelix. Neither is dying in a shuttle accident. But sometimes it happens. It's also not the fault of Tuvix that he was the result of the accident. He didn't cause the accident, yet you still insist on assigning blame to him for it. Tuvix is a sentient being with all the rights of anyone else, including not to be summarily executed against their will because Janeway decided it serves the needs of the state... which by all means she's the de facto head of out there. The only thing you could condemn Tuvix for is moral cowardice for not volunteering... but last I checked that's not a capital crime.
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Old May 1 2013, 06:04 PM   #639
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Somewhat off-topic, but I must be the only one who really, really enjoyed Tom Wright's calm, intelligent, heart-felt and emotional performance as Tuvix. I see him cast in a negative light by fans all the time – even in this very thread – yet I never really understood all the dissatisfaction with him. I loved him in the role, which made the climax of the episode all the more unbearable for me.
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Old May 1 2013, 08:05 PM   #640
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
I said equivalent. Yes it was an accident. Yes it was no fault of Tuvok and Neelix. Neither is dying in a shuttle accident. But sometimes it happens. It's also not the fault of Tuvix that he was the result of the accident. He didn't cause the accident, yet you still insist on assigning blame to him for it. Tuvix is a sentient being with all the rights of anyone else, including not to be summarily executed against their will because Janeway decided it serves the needs of the state... which by all means she's the de facto head of out there. The only thing you could condemn Tuvix for is moral cowardice for not volunteering... but last I checked that's not a capital crime.
Keeping something that doesn't belong to you is a crime.

M wrote: View Post
Somewhat off-topic, but I must be the only one who really, really enjoyed Tom Wright's calm, intelligent, heart-felt and emotional performance as Tuvix. I see him cast in a negative light by fans all the time – even in this very thread – yet I never really understood all the dissatisfaction with him. I loved him in the role, which made the climax of the episode all the more unbearable for me.
M I am glad you liked the character, that is a good thing. The problem is Tuvix is used time and again to justify someone's dislike of either the Janeway or the Neelix character without thinking the whole problem through to the ending.

You are supposed to feel uncomfortable, that was the aim of the writers and producers. I don't hate Tuvix, however I do like both Tuvok and Neelix a whole lot better. And that makes neither of us right or wrong, only at odds here. I am perfectly willing to concede that some people find one side of the argument more appealing than the other, what I am not willing to concede is my right to not be hit over the head with emotional arguments, and questionable preaching from the Tuvix supporter side of the argument.

What I do hope is that if I have my body stolen and am murdered for someone else, that my daughter sues the hell out of everyone involved. Again Tuvix isn't the donor, that honor goes to Tuvok and Neelix.
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Old May 1 2013, 08:08 PM   #641
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
I said equivalent. Yes it was an accident. Yes it was no fault of Tuvok and Neelix. Neither is dying in a shuttle accident. But sometimes it happens. It's also not the fault of Tuvix that he was the result of the accident. He didn't cause the accident, yet you still insist on assigning blame to him for it. Tuvix is a sentient being with all the rights of anyone else, including not to be summarily executed against their will because Janeway decided it serves the needs of the state... which by all means she's the de facto head of out there. The only thing you could condemn Tuvix for is moral cowardice for not volunteering... but last I checked that's not a capital crime.
Keeping something that doesn't belong to you is a crime.
Tuvix's life doesn't belong to him? So now we get to it... you endorse servitude and slavery in the name of authority just because he's different?
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Old May 1 2013, 08:26 PM   #642
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

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I am perfectly willing to concede that some people find one side of the argument more appealing than the other, what I am not willing to concede is my right to not be hit over the head with emotional arguments, and questionable preaching from the Tuvix supporter side of the argument.
That works both ways. IMO, telling those who disagree with you that they are anti-Janeway, anti-choice and/or anti-feminist does nothing to help the discussion.

What I do hope is that if I have my body stolen and am murdered for someone else, that my daughter sues the hell out of everyone involved. Again Tuvix isn't the donor, that honor goes to Tuvok and Neelix.
Tuvix stole nothing and murdered no one. A perpretrator has to act. Tuvix didn't exist prior to the accident, therefore couldn't act.

ETA: Not to worry. No one is going to murder you and steal your organs. That's illegal and, as I've made the point over and over in this thread, immoral. It's nice to see finally that you agree with me.

However, for a truly emotional argument!
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Old May 1 2013, 08:50 PM   #643
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
I don't hate Tuvix, however I do like both Tuvok and Neelix a whole lot better. And that makes neither of us right or wrong, only at odds here. I am perfectly willing to concede that some people find one side of the argument more appealing than the other, what I am not willing to concede is my right to not be hit over the head with emotional arguments, and questionable preaching from the Tuvix supporter side of the argument.
You just admitted that you like Tuvix less than Tuvox and Neelix and then claim that the other folks are using emotional arguments? Seriously?

This is what a rational way to approach the case would look like:
Two people died and one was born. You can reverse this process. Whatever you do, somebody dies / remains dead. There is no easy way out.

There is no Tuvok and Neelix or Tuvix bias in here, it is just boiling down the problem to its basics. Any comparisons with organ donation or whatever or claims that there is a "natural state", be it as it was before or after the accident, is just an attempt to avoid the horror that whatever Janeway decides is wrong and makes her guilty.
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Old May 1 2013, 09:27 PM   #644
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
I don't hate Tuvix, however I do like both Tuvok and Neelix a whole lot better. And that makes neither of us right or wrong, only at odds here. I am perfectly willing to concede that some people find one side of the argument more appealing than the other, what I am not willing to concede is my right to not be hit over the head with emotional arguments, and questionable preaching from the Tuvix supporter side of the argument.
You just admitted that you like Tuvix less than Tuvox and Neelix and then claim that the other folks are using emotional arguments? Seriously?.
Yes Seriously, I will freely admit I am very emotional about this subject. Why do you think I went to all the trouble to research organ donation, so yes I feel very deeply that Janeway made the only decision she could have made, now I have tried (and I am sure failed) in some instances. But I will not deny my gut feelings about this either.

horatio83 wrote: View Post
This is what a rational way to approach the case would look like:
Two people died and one was born. You can reverse this process. Whatever you do, somebody dies / remains dead. There is no easy way out.

There is no Tuvok and Neelix or Tuvix bias in here, it is just boiling down the problem to its basics. Any comparisons with organ donation or whatever or claims that there is a "natural state", be it as it was before or after the accident, is just an attempt to avoid the horror that whatever Janeway decides is wrong and makes her guilty.
And you are completely right, every thing else is conjecture on all our parts. Like I said earlier, the women in the US are fighting a battle now over the right to our own bodies, and yes I am very emotional about it. I cannot stress how important I think this is.
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Old May 1 2013, 09:43 PM   #645
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I think it is good to feel strongly about an issue. There is nothing wrong with being angry and hot-headed about anything of importance and it is certainly better than being ignorant or cynical or just not caring. But I also think it is necessary to use cold reason to analyze and completely understand a topic one cares about.
Perhaps I am stupid but I fail to see in what way the Tuvix accident is related to organ donation. It's not like some evil doctor took Tuvok and Neelix and cooked a Frankenstein monster out of them. It was rather an accident that happened without the involvement of any agency, it was a symbiotic plant getting into the transporter.

This is what we humans have a problem with, a catastrophe that has no deeper meaning. We are very good at coming up with reasons for something horrible that happened (Pat Robertson and 9/11, euphemisms for being no more like "resting in peace", the ancients sacrificing something to the gods to influence the bad weather) but we have a hard time embracing the total lack of sense of something like the Tuvix accident. There was no higher power involved and there is no meaning to it. Two people die and one was born. It is a total nightmare.
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