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Old April 30 2013, 11:33 PM   #616
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
I never know whether to take you seriously or not... Was this an episode? If so, awesome. If not, you should be writing for that show.

I could have accepted that the hospital tried to cover Izzy's idiocy in order to preserve their status. That absolutely no other staff member stepped forward to expose the mess was what was totally unbelievable.
Season 8 episode 13.

Here's some pictures and critical analysis

http://www.tvfanatic.com/2012/02/gre...speed=noscript

And here's the imdb listing

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2187691/

Back to reality (snigger.)

You'll recall that when questioned that all the medical students insisted (except Alex, who said "screw this") that it was they who cut the LVAD, and then Izzy gave the hospital 8 million dollars to start a free clinic, which has probably since been closed due to awful management and the many routine disasters the hospital attracts.

Dr Hahn (blonde lesbian number one.) when she found out about the LVAD wire (years/seasons later) because it directly impacted on one of her patients at her old in competition hospital went mental and started redemanding that everyone involved got fired.
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Old May 1 2013, 12:05 AM   #617
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
JanewayRulz! wrote: View Post
I actually find it funny that we in the scifi community discuss these ethical issues to death, and when they come into the mainstream they don't even create more than a "huh".

I'm specifically thinking of some news stories on cloning, a few years ago, that generated no angst as far as the network news anchors were concerned. I recall one of them suggesting, when a cloning story was introduced, that "nothing will ever be the same again" and my heckle from the peanut gallery was... "sure it will... it will be the same over and over until the copies degrade beyond use."

Well... I'm being extreme.. I do remember back in the 90's how a family got some guff from the public by having another baby to save the life of their teenaged daughter who needed a transplant.


It's a good point you make, that the 'mainstream' wouldn't bother to think much on an issue like this, while we're going at it tooth and nail on our respective positions. To a lot of people the closest thing to an ethical dilemma on tv is who backstabbed who to win at the latest reality show. Nothing wrong with that, even if I find it disappointing at times.

Cloning... well sooner or later this will become practical to the point where we see it often enough and some sort of consensus regulating it will have to be reached.

I never heard of that case you cited in the 90's... and I gotta say I find that kind of disturbing. That second kid has as much of a right to live as the first to me. I can understand the desperation to save one's child... but at the same time, you're killing your own child to save one you just happen to like more. Ugh.. life is not something to be casually interchanged like a part in a car.
I was off a little, it was 1988.

http://www.today.com/id/43265160/ns/...d-i-am-family/

Some of the concerns IIRC were along the lines of what would the baby feel (once grown), if the transplant wasn't successful and her sister died "anyway". Would she feel like a failure to her family, her parents? Would the parents not love her "as much" if despite all their heroics their first daughter died anyway?

Lots of questions, as the Doctor in the clip suggested, questions that get different answers when you look at it emotionally instead of "simply" ethically.

Its nice to know that everything for these two girls, worked out in the end.
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Old May 1 2013, 02:39 AM   #618
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I remember the hubbub over that case.
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Old May 1 2013, 05:04 AM   #619
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
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Yes, but in order to restore Neelix and Tuvok you had to murder another sentient being.

And haven't we already discussed TNG's "Measure of a Man" which established that Data (and by extension other beings) have the right to determine their own path.

Tuvix had the right to live, It wasn't Janeway's life to take. Accidents happen.
And to allow that being to live you have to murder Tuvok and Neelix. All arguments can be easily reversed, because there is no answer. Only different points of view.
No... no one murdered Tuvok and Neelix. Tuvok and Neelix died in an accident, creating Tuvix. Tuvix was deliberately murdered to bring Tuvok and Neelix back to life.

There's all the moral difference in the world between an accident that was no one's fault and willfully murdering someone against their will.
Agreed.
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Old May 1 2013, 05:27 AM   #620
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I'm a bit wigged by the moral pearing some of us have decided is allowed if there is no design behind Tuvix's conception.

B'Elanna at one time encouraged the Doctor to repeatedly induce brain damage so that she might continue having an entertaining dream, nothing about the fate of the universe, just a lark, with no fear or concern about how low her IQ got on the other side of this adventure.

If she had become a simpleton who took delight in being a simpleton, would the Doctor and Janeway feel compelled to re-inflate her intellect against this new B'Elanna's adamant instructions?

You know, like what happened to Tuvok in season 6.
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Old May 1 2013, 09:27 AM   #621
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Melakon wrote: View Post
There's no right or wrong answer, which is the entire point of the episode.
You see, I never understood how people could view the situation in "Tuvix" that way. An answer that constitutes of killing an innocent sentient being in cold blood simply CAN'T be the right answer. Sure, not getting Tuvok and Neelix back was very unfortunate, but murdering Tuvix was just all kinds of wrong.

(As an aside, I can't believe I'm actually posting in yet another Tuvix thread. Seems like there's one every other month.)
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Old May 1 2013, 09:31 AM   #622
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I know she's a slave, but somebody feed that poor girl before she passes out.
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Old May 1 2013, 09:39 AM   #623
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

M wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
. . .blah bla-blah blah. . .
You see, I never understood how people could view the situation in "Tuvix" that way. . .
Easy. I never took an Ethics course.
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Old May 1 2013, 09:39 AM   #624
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I know she's a slave, but somebody feed that poor girl before she passes out.
Devna ain't no slave! She's a member of the Elysian Council and acts as their Interpreter of Laws. Oh, and she likes to dance.
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Old May 1 2013, 09:42 AM   #625
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Melakon wrote: View Post
M wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
. . .blah bla-blah blah. . .
You see, I never understood how people could view the situation in "Tuvix" that way. . .
Easy. I never took an Ethics course.
And neither did I. I like to think, however, that it's kind of basic to view killing an innocent as immoral.
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Old May 1 2013, 09:55 AM   #626
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

He was a gestalt of two people, Janeway ungestalted him. Tuvok and Neelix should be able to expect transporter screw ups to be fixed. If it were the two bodies melded like simese twins no one would have this arguement, but because the minds did, suddenly he's a new person? No, he's a glitch to be fixed.
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Old May 1 2013, 10:52 AM   #627
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
He was a gestalt of two people, Janeway ungestalted him. Tuvok and Neelix should be able to expect transporter screw ups to be fixed. If it were the two bodies melded like simese twins no one would have this arguement, but because the minds did, suddenly he's a new person? No, he's a glitch to be fixed.
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Old May 1 2013, 10:54 AM   #628
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

If Tuvix had been lucky, the temporal fracturing from Shattered would have impacted on his life.

Almost everyone in every other time zone on that ship, including Seven loyal to the Borg, but not Seska who knew she had more of a right to live than Chakotay and figured out the math to support her belief system proving that her continued existence is no more destructive than if Chuckles was allowed to live, committed suicide by allowing Chuckles he chance to stop the temporal explosion in his present.

Chakotay asked for hundreds of people and maybe half a dozen Kathryn Janeway's to murder themselves or consent to being murdered, or fight being murdered poorly, so that he could live.

The needs of the few or the one out weigh the needs of the many my ass.
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Old May 1 2013, 01:29 PM   #629
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post

There's all the moral difference in the world between an accident that was no one's fault and willfully murdering someone against their will.
Agreed.
And when you don't deconstruct Tuvix once you know how to restore Tuvok and Neelix, then you have murdered them. The questioning point is not the accident, but later when the ability to restore two people to the bodies that they in fact own. To not do so is not only murder, it is most likely against the law. The right to your own body is the argument and not who is murdering who.
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Old May 1 2013, 01:47 PM   #630
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Janeway Murdered Tuvix once.

Tuvok and Neelix murdered the man 9 times a day for the rest of their lives every time they thought about putting the band back together until they reached the final conclusion "Nah-fuckit."

Neelix is practical, he's going to get that nice girl he met to sign a prenuptial agreement attesting that she is not going to stop frakking him if he gets converted into some sort of thing by a transporter accident.

What happened to Neelix, already already to his sister. The entire population of a moon got turned into a single cloud like entity monster which gave Neelix nightmares and caused him to desert form the space army rather than avenge his sister smited by the meteron cascade.

BY that reckoning Neelix spent the last twenty years already committed to the foregone conclusion that Tuvix was the absolute worst thing that could happen to him.

Non resus order in case it all got horribly worse vs. heroic means to reverse the procedure.
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