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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 30 2013, 03:43 PM   #46
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Romulans did nothing more on DS9 than they did on TNG, TOS or ENT.

Klingons were stupid gorillamen and drunks mostly. Even Kor who was serious and militant became a trope. Gowron who had intellect and courage in TNG became a spoiled and incompetent character for the sake of conflict on DS9 leading up to the Dominion War, and died a trope.

Cardassians were little more than epic trolls to the DS9 crew prior to the Dominion War. Always finding some way to f*** with our heroes every other week as if they didn't have a government to run.

The Bajorans preachy religiousness was pushed to much and to far in the viewers face. They were annoying, bratty and thought the universe revolved around them. TOS, and TNG showed us the universe is full of different species every week. DS9 camped down and we actually got to learn about one. I personally couldnt care less about the Bajorans.'re saying you're a Cardassian?
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Old April 30 2013, 05:27 PM   #47
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post

Also it was Gene's rule since TOS that conflict show come from outside the ship.
Actually, he didn't come up with that until TNG.
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Old April 30 2013, 06:40 PM   #48
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"


Harvey wrote: View Post
Never mind later this week -- found it!

TO: Fred Freiberger
FROM: Gene Roddenberry
DATE: May 23, 1968
SUBJECT: “Wink of an Eye” Story Outline 3/22/68 by Lee Cronin

(excerpted from a 3-page story memo)

I think also he will see that we don’t have enough inter-character relationships among our continuing people. We need conflicts, disagreements, rich personality relationship between Kirk, Spock, McCoy and others. Otherwise, our “television family group” becomes a rather uninteresting assortment of similar individuals who stand around throwing each other lines and generally agreeing with each other.
Of course, Roddenberry reversed his position on inter-character conflict twenty years later, which, ironically, caused quite a bit of inter-personal conflict behind the scenes of Star Trek: The Next Generation.
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

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Old April 30 2013, 08:30 PM   #49
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
As far as growing with the characters, sure the characters grew since the pilot but when you have 176 episodes what do you expect.
DS9 is the only Trek show that really has this, or at least it has much, much more of it than the other shows. It's hardly something that can be understood as a given.

DS9's writers were actually really good at building characters, challenging them, and tying together disparate plot threads in ways that were essentially character-driven.

The show compares favorably, in that regard, not just to other Trek shows, but to other shows in the genre, and even outside of it.

Where serial story-telling is concerned, DS9 is pretty amateurish. It's better than other Trek shows, and it's good that the arc episodes are there, but there isn't really much of it, and what's there is far from perfect. DS9's strengths are really world and character building.

Not all of the characters have Kira, Odo, or Nog-like arcs, but they are all affected by the journey in one way or another. Quark is a good example of that. In a sense, his journey is "staying the same," i.e. not being assimilated, not going soft as he puts it, or not completely. So Quark and his bar end up almost like the station itself: the main stable element. But the Quark of WYLB is not the Quark of Emissary. The difference is just more subtle than wth, say, Nog.

Why? Because Quark has had his initial views and values challenged in a hundred different ways since the pilot. He still has them, but he understands them differently because of those experiences. One could say the same thing about how DS9 challenged some of Trek's core ideas: they survive, and in a sense they are stronger at the end of the show than before. But we understand them differently.
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Old May 1 2013, 01:35 AM   #50
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Both were ends justify the means scenarios. Both Sisko and Anakin were tempted and gave into their dark compulsions with the promise of greater rewards by someone. One is a master of deceit who prides himself on manipulation and telling half truths with the power of suggestion to achieve his goals and the other is a sith lord. We saw both Sisko and Anakin weigh the options of their decisions and chose their own selfish desires. While Sisko's was indeed for a nobler cause when compared to Anakin. I think the body count for Romulan casualties outweighs the Jedi casualties cause by Anakin's betrayal. Comparing Anakin to Sisko in this way I find interesting because in Ep III we see Anakin go from a brave knight to evil bastard. One decision and Anakin slides further and further down the silppery slope "Into Darkness". With Sisko we get the same line every other Captain, Admiral and even Section 31 members utter " it's for the Federation" . So I guess that makes it ok.
Sisko is Adama and Anakin is Admiral Cain.

The key difference is the net casualties. Anakin's net casualties are several billion. Sisko's net casualties are minus a trillion.

Sure, technically speaking they are both 'Ends justify the means'. But Sisko's ends are saving a trillion lives, and Anakin's ends are 'I rule the galaxy with an iron fist and slaughter anyone who doesn't go along'. Kind of a big difference there.


Biemer did a lot of TNG work, so did Echevarria.

The only major TNG writers who were consistent contributors during its prime who didn't come to DS9 were pretty much Braga and Taylor.
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Old May 1 2013, 05:56 AM   #51
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The only major TNG writers who were consistent contributors during its prime who didn't come to DS9 were pretty much Braga and Taylor.
They will too busy screwing up VOY.
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Old May 27 2013, 04:35 AM   #52
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

Well, it might be if you look at what is on TV, and do not count cultural relevance with influential.

TOS, and TNG are both much more cultural relevant. Almost everyone knows Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. And A LOT of people know Picard, Data, and so on.

However, when it comes to whats on TV, DS9 had a number of major factors that we forget.

1. Large cast
2. Diverse Cast (how many shows had the main star as a black man, a arab man as a lead role, and was aimed not at a ethnic audience at this time? )
3. None-episodic storytelling, which as been the rage of TV for the last 10-15 years.

Yes, Babylon 5 was doing some of the same stuff (Non-episodic storytelling mostly) and while i LOVE babylon 5, it a cult hit, and due to the budget limits, has not aged well. (And lets be honest, some of babylon 5 acting was uneven, while DS9 was able to afford a better set of actors on most shows.)

Also, the people involved in DS9 have gone on and done a lot of important shows. I would still say TOS is more influential overall, but modern TV has a lot more DS9 then any other Trek.
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