RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,237
Posts: 5,348,114
Members: 24,611
Currently online: 504
Newest member: fxks323

TrekToday headlines

Insight Editions Announces Three Trek Books For 2015
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

To Be Takei Review by Spencer Blohm
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Mulgrew: Playing Red
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Hallmark 2015 Trek Ornaments
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Funko Mini Spock
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

IDW Publishing Comic Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

A Baby For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

Klingon Beer Arrives In The US
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Star Trek: Prelude To Axanar
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Abrams Announces Star Wars: Force For Change Sweepstakes
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 29 2013, 09:02 PM   #181
Enterpriserules
Fleet Captain
 
Enterpriserules's Avatar
 
Location: On an Andorian Atlire-class escort cruisers, the Mat-Rus. From "The Poisoned Chalice
View Enterpriserules's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Defcon wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
^Could you provide an exact quote, please? It's a 90-minute podcast and I'm just asking about one statement. As you've described it, it doesn't make sense. CBS doesn't have some office that defines what is canon. That's the purview of whoever's currently creating new Trek content, which is currently J.J. Abrams and his team. CBS's licensing department makes sure that tie-ins are consistent with canon, but the canon is defined as what's onscreen.
It starts about the 71:20 minute mark, and what he actually said was that they told him that "it was "canon" until somebody films something that says it not". Listening to what he says afterwards I'm kind of wondering if Goodman even is aware what canon actually is, since if you use his requirements (published/licensed by the producer of Star TRek (CSB) and not contradicting on-screen stuff) almost every novel is canon.
I'm not sure why CBS would do the book if it did not have some legitimacy in canon, yeah it can be written over onscreen, but why get a producer and writer for the show to write this if you didn't want to make it worth fans investment?
__________________
My Blog is www.42lifeinbetween.wordpress.com and I am the co-host of Literary Treks and The Orb podcasts.
Enterpriserules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2013, 09:05 PM   #182
Defcon
Rear Admiral
 
Defcon's Avatar
 
Location: Germany
View Defcon's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
Defcon wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
^Could you provide an exact quote, please? It's a 90-minute podcast and I'm just asking about one statement. As you've described it, it doesn't make sense. CBS doesn't have some office that defines what is canon. That's the purview of whoever's currently creating new Trek content, which is currently J.J. Abrams and his team. CBS's licensing department makes sure that tie-ins are consistent with canon, but the canon is defined as what's onscreen.
It starts about the 71:20 minute mark, and what he actually said was that they told him that "it was "canon" until somebody films something that says it not". Listening to what he says afterwards I'm kind of wondering if Goodman even is aware what canon actually is, since if you use his requirements (published/licensed by the producer of Star TRek (CSB) and not contradicting on-screen stuff) almost every novel is canon.
I'm not sure why CBS would do the book if it did not have some legitimacy in canon, yeah it can be written over onscreen, but why get a producer and writer for the show to write this if you didn't want to make it worth fans investment?
If we follow this logic the TMP novelization (by Gene Roddenberry), Jeri Taylor's novels and The Ferengi Rules of Acquisition (Ira Steven Behr) are canon, too.

Last edited by Defcon; April 29 2013 at 09:16 PM.
Defcon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2013, 09:05 PM   #183
Enterpriserules
Fleet Captain
 
Enterpriserules's Avatar
 
Location: On an Andorian Atlire-class escort cruisers, the Mat-Rus. From "The Poisoned Chalice
View Enterpriserules's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Christopher wrote: View Post
So really, aside from his choice of words, he's not saying anything about this book that isn't equally true of every other tie-in.

After all, The First 150 Years contradicts Pocket's post-ENT novels which predated it; yet my Rise of the Federation novels are consistent with those novels and nobody told me that I had to ignore them and be consistent with TF150Y instead. And tie-ins always have to be consistent with canon. Therefore, TF150Y is not canon.
I am just telling you what David told us on the show. I asked this specific question at about 71 minutes so you can listen to David's own words.
__________________
My Blog is www.42lifeinbetween.wordpress.com and I am the co-host of Literary Treks and The Orb podcasts.
Enterpriserules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2013, 09:15 PM   #184
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
I'm not sure why CBS would do the book if it did not have some legitimacy in canon, yeah it can be written over onscreen, but why get a producer and writer for the show to write this if you didn't want to make it worth fans investment?
For the same reason they did every other Trek novel and reference book they've done over the past few decades: to make more money by selling merchandise associated with a popular series. They're not interested in continuity; that's the purview of the creators of the show. CBS is a business. They want to make a profit. And the market value of media tie-ins has never been dependent on their canon status. Some fans obsess about things like that, but most just want to see stories about the characters and ideas they enjoy, and don't worry so much about consistency. It's worth the fans' investment if it's enjoyable. That's what this is all about. I'll never understand fans who treat this like they're studying for a test and have to get the right reference materials. It's not work, it's entertainment. It's about reading a book for enjoyment of its ideas. If another book offers an incompatible set of ideas, that doesn't have to detract from your enjoyment; on the contrary, it can add to it by offering another interesting variation on the theme.

Mr. Goodman offered one version of events surrounding the Romulan War and the Federation's founding; whereas Andy Mangels, Mike Martin, and I have been developing a separate and incompatible version of those events. And that's fine, because it gives readers options, lets them explore two different takes on the question. Just like DC and Pocket offered different versions of Kirk's first mission on the Enterprise back in the '80s, or Pocket and IDW offered different versions of Khan's exile, or the like.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2013, 09:22 PM   #185
Enterpriserules
Fleet Captain
 
Enterpriserules's Avatar
 
Location: On an Andorian Atlire-class escort cruisers, the Mat-Rus. From "The Poisoned Chalice
View Enterpriserules's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Christopher wrote: View Post
Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
I'm not sure why CBS would do the book if it did not have some legitimacy in canon, yeah it can be written over onscreen, but why get a producer and writer for the show to write this if you didn't want to make it worth fans investment?
For the same reason they did every other Trek novel and reference book they've done over the past few decades: to make more money by selling merchandise associated with a popular series. They're not interested in continuity; that's the purview of the creators of the show. CBS is a business. They want to make a profit. And the market value of media tie-ins has never been dependent on their canon status. Some fans obsess about things like that, but most just want to see stories about the characters and ideas they enjoy, and don't worry so much about consistency. It's worth the fans' investment if it's enjoyable. That's what this is all about. I'll never understand fans who treat this like they're studying for a test and have to get the right reference materials. It's not work, it's entertainment. It's about reading a book for enjoyment of its ideas. If another book offers an incompatible set of ideas, that doesn't have to detract from your enjoyment; on the contrary, it can add to it by offering another interesting variation on the theme.
You'll get no argument from me. I read ST books cause I like them. I cannot wait to read your new Ent series and if that contradicts 150 yrs I'm ok with that. I was just relaying what David told us on the show. Literary Treks is a place for ST book and comic lovers and authors to come together over something we all love. So I'm with you Chris, I read because I enjoy. We're hoping you'll come on the talk Rise of the Federation: A Choice of Futures, we are both very excited to read it!
__________________
My Blog is www.42lifeinbetween.wordpress.com and I am the co-host of Literary Treks and The Orb podcasts.
Enterpriserules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2013, 10:23 PM   #186
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Defcon wrote: View Post
It starts about the 71:20 minute mark, and what he actually said was that they told him that "it was "canon" until somebody films something that says it not". Listening to what he says afterwards I'm kind of wondering if Goodman even is aware what canon actually is, since if you use his requirements (published/licensed by the producer of Star Trek (CBS) and not contradicting on-screen stuff) almost every novel is canon.
I was kinda shocked to discover how little Al Rivera (the lead designer of the Star Trek Online videogame) understands canon, when it was discussed in this podcast I linked to here some time ago. He had no idea whatsoever, thinking the Titan novels and Countdown comic were canon but Destiny and the stuff about Janeway dying wasn't. I was listening and thinking, "For gods' sake man, Google it!"
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2013, 10:37 PM   #187
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

^Well, there's so much misinformation and misunderstanding about canon among the general public that I can't blame a tie-in newcomer for being confused. I've had the advantage of working alongside the folks at Pocket, who've been doing Trek tie-ins longer than anyone and thus were able to fill me in on how it works.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2013, 11:50 PM   #188
Enterpriserules
Fleet Captain
 
Enterpriserules's Avatar
 
Location: On an Andorian Atlire-class escort cruisers, the Mat-Rus. From "The Poisoned Chalice
View Enterpriserules's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Well, there's so much misinformation and misunderstanding about canon among the general public that I can't blame a tie-in newcomer for being confused. I've had the advantage of working alongside the folks at Pocket, who've been doing Trek tie-ins longer than anyone and thus were able to fill me in on how it works.
Thanks for sharing. Honestly if the story is good and the characters are well written, that is what makes for a good Trek book, any book to me.
__________________
My Blog is www.42lifeinbetween.wordpress.com and I am the co-host of Literary Treks and The Orb podcasts.
Enterpriserules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30 2013, 10:13 AM   #189
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
I'm not sure why CBS would do the book if it did not have some legitimacy in canon
CBS didn't "do the book", they licensed it out to becker&mayer and 47North. It is no more "legitimate" than books put out by Ballantine, Corgi, Bantam, Pocket/Gallery, Abrams Publishing or Running Press, etc.

King Daniel wrote: View Post
He had no idea whatsoever, thinking the Titan novels and Countdown comic were canon but Destiny and the stuff about Janeway dying wasn't. I was listening and thinking, "For gods' sake man, Google it!"
Canon [for the the purposes of his videogame project].
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30 2013, 03:33 PM   #190
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Moral of the story:

Fans are, as per usual, way more concerned about how "canon" a work of tie-in fiction is than the actual licensors or authors.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30 2013, 04:39 PM   #191
Enterpriserules
Fleet Captain
 
Enterpriserules's Avatar
 
Location: On an Andorian Atlire-class escort cruisers, the Mat-Rus. From "The Poisoned Chalice
View Enterpriserules's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Sci wrote: View Post
Moral of the story:

Fans are, as per usual, way more concerned about how "canon" a work of tie-in fiction is than the actual licensors or authors.
You should see Star Wars forums, it's insane

Honestly, I just enjoy good character stories
__________________
My Blog is www.42lifeinbetween.wordpress.com and I am the co-host of Literary Treks and The Orb podcasts.
Enterpriserules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30 2013, 09:51 PM   #192
The Wormhole
Admiral
 
The Wormhole's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
You should see Star Wars forums, it's insane
I suspect things will get more insane (and by extension more interesting) in the next few years as Abrams rolls over EU continuity.
__________________
"Internet message boards aren't as funny today as they were ten years ago. I've stopped reading new posts." -The Simpsons 20th anniversary special.
The Wormhole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30 2013, 10:32 PM   #193
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Sci wrote: View Post
Moral of the story:

Fans are, as per usual, way more concerned about how "canon" a work of tie-in fiction is than the actual licensors or authors.
Some fans.

I came to "Star Trek" fandom by way of the ST:TMP novelization. Those first few months, I'd try to pacify fans' angry complaints about the movie by suggesting that there were answers in the novelization. They just didn't want to know about it.

Ditto the "Star Trek Logs", when I found them. They filled in many, many gaps in the Filmation TAS episodes. And then, when the Pocket novels started coming out. I'd loved "The Entropy Effect", but so many ST fans seemed to be angrily resistant to reading things that "never really happened".

I actually convinced a few fans to read the ST III novelization during the six month delay between the US and Australian premieres. We went to see the movie and one complained, "They left out all the best bits!"
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2013, 05:47 AM   #194
Tommunist
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: Otisburg
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Christopher, have you read the "Federation: The First 150 Years" book yet? And if, for whatever reason, you actually did want to incorporate a data point or two from it in your next "Enterprise" novel, would you be able to?
Tommunist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2013, 01:05 PM   #195
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Star Trek Federation: The First 150 Years

Tommunist wrote: View Post
Christopher, have you read the "Federation: The First 150 Years" book yet?
Haven't had the opportunity yet.

And if, for whatever reason, you actually did want to incorporate a data point or two from it in your next "Enterprise" novel, would you be able to?
Of course I could. While different tie-ins over the decades have never been obligated to stay consistent with each other, they've always been free to reference each other if the authors chose.

Really, all fiction is about building on pre-existing ideas, and in franchise fiction, you often see ideas shared by incompatible continuities: Superman comics adopting Jimmy Olsen and The Daily Planet from radio; Batman: TAS character Harley Quinn showing up in the comics and in other screen adaptations like Birds of Prey; the Raimi Spider-Man 3 drawing as much on the '90s animated series' adaptation of the Alien Costume/Venom story as on the comics' version; Star Wars: The Clone Wars adopting some characters and ideas from the novels and comics while contradicting others; and so on. You can see a similar pattern of borrowing in original science fiction, like the way Ursula LeGuin's word "ansible" for an instantaneous FTL communication system has been used in a lot of other SF, or the way terms coined by SF author Jack Williamson like "terraforming," "ion drive," and "genetic engineering" have become universal not only in other SF but in actual science. SF is an ongoing dialogue as authors write stories to respond to earlier stories, sometimes adapting and expanding on their ideas, other times challenging and refuting them.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:31 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.