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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 29 2013, 10:03 PM   #16
R. Star
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Well the real reason is no alien races in Star Trek beyond the Federation have a lot of ship designs.

The Cardassians had three ships and two types of starbases. The Klingons have been using D-7 and Birds of Preys for hundreds of years. The Romulans just have the big bad warbird... and a little science ship. Nothing in between. It goes on and on. I know this is due to budget reasons, but it does make the other races look more than a bit two dimensional.
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Old April 30 2013, 12:48 AM   #17
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Maybe Empok Nor just isn't near anything important.

Tarak Nor was Bajor-adjacent, and the Federation reeeally wanted to bring Bajor in from the moment they drove away the Cardassians.

Empok Nor's not near anything.

A better question is why didn't the Cardassians destroy Tarak Nor when they abandoned it.
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Old April 30 2013, 12:58 AM   #18
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Timo wrote: View Post
What I find quite interesting is the Cardassian side of this equation. Why did they build two seemingly identical stations? Terok Nor was supposedly optimized for controlling and strip-mining Bajor. Was Empok Nor supposed to augment Terok Nor at Bajor, but was abandoned in mid-tow for some reason? Or was it destined for another conquered planet very similar to Bajor?
The conquest is beside the point. It was designed as an ore-processing station. I would assume there's a standardized Nor-class station design used for similar mining operations throughout Cardassian space -- just as Starfleet has had multiple starbases using the Regula I design or the Earth Spacedock design. For a real-world parallel, I'm sure there are a lot of identically designed offshore oil platforms or air traffic control towers scattered about. Or, if you drive along the Pennsylvania Turnpike, you'll find different, nearly-identical travel plazas at various points along its length. Terok Nor served functions analogous to all of those, just combined into one.
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Old April 30 2013, 09:34 PM   #19
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
A better question is why didn't the Cardassians destroy Tarak Nor when they abandoned it.
They did leave booby traps behind, IIRC. Perhaps the thought of Starfleet and the Bajorans running all over the place trying to fix it up was funnier to the Cardassians than simply blowing it to smithereens...
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Old April 30 2013, 09:57 PM   #20
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

I always had the impression that Bajor was evacuated very quickly, in a few hours time window and they didn't have time to destroy everything they left behind. Much like the US evacuation of Saigon.
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Old May 2 2013, 09:37 AM   #21
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Plus, many on Cardassia (and on the station) probably thought they would be back next Tuesday anyway, when all this "giving in to the Federation" nonsense was sorted out.

Having one "standardized mining station" located in the middle of empty space and another on low planetary orbit would tell us something about the type of standardization that Cardassians practice - it'd really be a bit like having a floating offshore oil drilling rig applied on Texan or Siberian inland wells as is! But perhaps Empok Nor is the more typical application of this model, and Empok Nor a jury-rigged aberration?

After all, in "Necessary Evil" we saw that the area that would be the elegant and user-friendly Promenade once the Federation took over and also on Empok Nor was equipped with clumsy chicken-wire-and-death-ray walls for managing the flow of Bajoran laborers. Apparently, the station wasn't really designed for that sort of personnel policy from the get-go...

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...necevil089.jpg
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...necevil091.jpg

Yet its refining systems did seem sadistically customized for expendable labor for some reason, as per the descriptions in "Civil Defense". Or did we misunderstand something? Perhaps the workstations there (and on Empok Nor) were quite comfortable and ergonomic for the normally employed Cardassian workers, and Bajorans only suffered there due to their inferior physique?

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Old May 2 2013, 04:11 PM   #22
KNH
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

As we're told in the episode it debuted in, Empok Nor was a test site for experimental drugs. Maybe the labor/mining atmosphere lent itself to testing in a way that made it more economical to use it rather than build a new station?
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Old May 3 2013, 02:19 PM   #23
Timo
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

This doesn't explain yet what a mining station would be doing far away from mines, though.

And in any case, the drug experiment appeared to be but a minor aspect of the station's operations. Indeed, it may not have been part of those operations at all - but merely something that was brought to the station when it was already clear that operations would cease. After all, the drug-crazed soldiers were supposed to kill everybody at sight, which is something you only want to experiment on after you yourself have departed...

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Old May 3 2013, 05:28 PM   #24
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Who knows? Assuming that the station was NOT in orbit around some planet that wasn't seen (because it was ALWAYS on the other side of the camera at that time), or for that matter near an cluster or belt of asteroids (far enough to avoid navigational hazards, and JUST far enough not to be seen), perhaps it was being towed somewhere, broke free, and was decided to abandon it wherever it ended up or drifted. Or perhaps it did simply that, and broke orbit somehow after it was abandoned... The same way its onboard computer keeps a lookout for passing ships to make sure its orientation is at least 45 degrees to their apparent "up".

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Old May 4 2013, 01:27 AM   #25
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Christopher wrote: View Post
JediKnightButler wrote: View Post
It always looked weird situated on its side- at least in "Empok Nor" and "The Magnificent Ferengi".
Which was a silly conceit, since there's no up or down in space. It wasn't "on its side," it's just that they chose to tilt the camera relative to it as a visual shorthand to convey "damaged and listing" to our gravity-conditioned eyes.
I always liked how Kronos One flies down into camera view from the top left of the screen, kinda levels off, and then flies back upwards again to finally come along side the Enterprise.

Too much bloodwine maybe?
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Old May 4 2013, 12:48 PM   #26
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

The Reliant also rolls in order to match attitude with the Enterprise. Presumably, all ships do this sort of a little ballet shortly before they begin to share a film frame, and ships of a feather know the rules so they can make do with a simple roll, whereas ships from alien cultures are forced to undergo a more awkward back-and-forth, do-you-lead-or-do-I dance until they settle for a common orientation.

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Old May 7 2013, 08:33 PM   #27
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

R. Star wrote: View Post
I always had the impression that Bajor was evacuated very quickly, in a few hours time window and they didn't have time to destroy everything they left behind. Much like the US evacuation of Saigon.
Self destruct tends to take 5 minutes, I think the explanation that they thought they'd be back is more realistic.

Timo wrote: View Post
This doesn't explain yet what a mining station would be doing far away from mines, though.
Weren't the mines on Bajor mostly on the surface, maybe the odd moon.

Why ship raw ore up to the station to process when you could just build a processing plant on the surface and ship the refined product?
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Old May 7 2013, 09:04 PM   #28
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Paul Weaver wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
I always had the impression that Bajor was evacuated very quickly, in a few hours time window and they didn't have time to destroy everything they left behind. Much like the US evacuation of Saigon.
Self destruct tends to take 5 minutes, I think the explanation that they thought they'd be back is more realistic.

Timo wrote: View Post
This doesn't explain yet what a mining station would be doing far away from mines, though.
Weren't the mines on Bajor mostly on the surface, maybe the odd moon.

Why ship raw ore up to the station to process when you could just build a processing plant on the surface and ship the refined product?
I dunno, why isn't there a refinery next to every oil rig on our planet?
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Old May 8 2013, 03:39 PM   #29
Timo
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

If refining gear is more expensive than mining gear, it doesn't merely make sense to concentrate the former - it makes sense to move it to a secure location where Bajoran terrorists can't get to it. A surface location would offer logistical advantages in that one would only have to ship the end product to orbit, not dull ore. However, you'd still also need an orbiting location for your intimidation base and starship harbor. One integrated location might be better than two.

And the cost of surface-to-orbit logistics might be negligible if you can use transporters on the ore...

We still have a poor picture of how Terok Nor was supposed to operate. The DS9 Tech Manual offers some ideas, but few of these get onscreen support. How did the ore get up there? How did it flow through the station? What was done to it, exactly? Who did it - repressed Bajoran slaves (never mentioned in any context), or privileged Bajoran paid workers who were free to move (since e.g. Kira moved quite freely in "Necessary Evil")? How did the end products get to Cardassia - or was ore perhaps shipped as well? Was the station able to process multiple types of ore, or did it specialize, and if so, in what? What other roles did the station have?

Also, what other assets might the Cardassians have had in the system? We only heard of prison camps, one of which had some mining going on; we didn't learn how most of the mines were run. Surface garrisons, government strongholds and the like were never mentioned. Yet apparently the Resistance still occasionally had a Cardassian target to strike at, rather than merely lashing out on fellow Bajorans.

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Old May 9 2013, 09:43 PM   #30
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

From what we've seen in the show, it's pretty clear that the ore-processing part of DS9 was probably a modular component of the station. It was so non-integrated to the rest of the station that it seems no one bothered to even clean up the leftover ore on the floor, let alone the computer systems, in over two years!
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