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Old April 29 2013, 07:44 PM   #571
Deckerd
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sci wrote: View Post

Those lives had already ended. Tuvok and Neelix were dead, and Tuvix was killed in order to create new copies of them.
Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?
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Old April 29 2013, 07:55 PM   #572
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

Those lives had already ended. Tuvok and Neelix were dead, and Tuvix was killed in order to create new copies of them.
Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?
You do realize that coercive donation even after death is illegal in places including Canada. In those "opt-in" countries even being dead isn't good enough to take organs without consent.
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Old April 29 2013, 08:04 PM   #573
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
From an engineering perspective, there's probably a lot of resentment that Vulcan's invented everything useful and continue to break new grounds in new fields, leaving nothing for humans to do but be lonely little technicians toiling off on the periphery where Vulcans can't lower themselves to go.

Tuvix has all that Ocampan DNA in him right?

Which means that he has the potential to turn into a Starship flinging ascended being just like Kes in the Gift after having his brain supercharged form conversation with 8472 opening up new telepathic potentials.

1. Kes is a child, who translated the nuances of the conversation with 8472 so poorly that she couldn't tell the difference between friend and foe. Tuvix probably wouldn't have been confused, then easily talked his way into an Aliance with 8472 to destroy the Borg.

2. As a space god who can throw Voyager 10 k light years without any structural damage to the ship, just like Kes... Tuvix, who I might remind you is Captain Tuvix, might have waited around caught a second wind, even if it took him a month, and then kept throwing Voyager across the GALAXY until it hit Earth space.
So now Janeway was wrong because she threw away a perfectly good opportunity to both defeat the Borg/gain new friends for the federation and get Voyager home 3 to 4 years earlier and not having to screw up history like its her personal plaything in the process.
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Old April 29 2013, 08:09 PM   #574
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

Those lives had already ended. Tuvok and Neelix were dead, and Tuvix was killed in order to create new copies of them.
Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?
You do realize that coercive donation even after death is illegal in places including Canada. In those "opt-in" countries even being dead isn't good enough to take organs without consent.
You're acting like Tuvix's spirit came up behind Neelix and Tuvok and killed them, and sucked in their organs so he could create a body for himself. He didn't cause the accident. He was the result of the accident.

Furthermore, your argument about coercive donor donations being illegal... well that's a flat argument against Janeway killing Tuvix against his will.
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Old April 29 2013, 08:21 PM   #575
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

Those lives had already ended. Tuvok and Neelix were dead, and Tuvix was killed in order to create new copies of them.
Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?
We're worried about sounding "ridiculous" now?

You do realize this is an episode about a machine that turns two people into one, as though it were a magical blender, right?
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Old April 29 2013, 08:52 PM   #576
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

No idea what this comment is about, what you said is simply correct. One has to ignore fuzzy question of how natural Tuvix's creation is, whether Tuvox and Neelix are dead or a part of Tuvix or whatever. One has to be technical: they are dead, he is alive. And if you want them back you have to kill him.

I am totally fine with Janeway's decision as long as one calls it what it is, murder.
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Old April 29 2013, 09:16 PM   #577
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Bullshit, Tuvix is a replicator error that got fixed.
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Old April 29 2013, 09:29 PM   #578
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Thanks for illustrating my point about fuzzy questions of whether Tuvix is "natural" or "unnatural" and stuff like that.
There is nothing natural about death and creation at the same time. Pretending that there is a natural order which we can reestablish is pagan thinking and I thought we left this behind us thousands of years ago. Then again people often revert to such thinking when they face catastrophes.

The proper, modern way to approach the Tuvix problem is to first and above all accept what Sci has pointed out. Two people have been merged into one and there is no easy or "natural" way out. No matter what you do, blood is on your hands.
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Old April 29 2013, 09:45 PM   #579
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post

Have you any idea how ridiculous that sounds?
You do realize that coercive donation even after death is illegal in places including Canada. In those "opt-in" countries even being dead isn't good enough to take organs without consent.
You're acting like Tuvix's spirit came up behind Neelix and Tuvok and killed them, and sucked in their organs so he could create a body for himself. He didn't cause the accident. He was the result of the accident.

Furthermore, your argument about coercive donor donations being illegal... well that's a flat argument against Janeway killing Tuvix against his will.
Bingo.
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Old April 29 2013, 09:46 PM   #580
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

As I said earlier in the thread. It's human nature to dehumanize their victims to justify their murder. If you can convince your mind that they're somehow lesser than you are it's really not murder somehow. Gov Kodos basically proved as much with that comment.
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Old April 29 2013, 11:33 PM   #581
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
As I said earlier in the thread. It's human nature to dehumanize their victims to justify their murder. If you can convince your mind that they're somehow lesser than you are it's really not murder somehow. Gov Kodos basically proved as much with that comment.
And you are not doing this to Tuvok and Neelix?
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Old April 29 2013, 11:36 PM   #582
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post

You do realize that coercive donation even after death is illegal in places including Canada. In those "opt-in" countries even being dead isn't good enough to take organs without consent.
You're acting like Tuvix's spirit came up behind Neelix and Tuvok and killed them, and sucked in their organs so he could create a body for himself. He didn't cause the accident. He was the result of the accident.

Furthermore, your argument about coercive donor donations being illegal... well that's a flat argument against Janeway killing Tuvix against his will.
Bingo.
Bingo is right Taya, and you are caught in your own argument. This is a never ending circle. If you think we are caught, you are just as caught. Tuvok and Neelix are the donors Tuvix is not. And I'll bet law will see it that way.
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Old April 29 2013, 11:46 PM   #583
R. Star
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
As I said earlier in the thread. It's human nature to dehumanize their victims to justify their murder. If you can convince your mind that they're somehow lesser than you are it's really not murder somehow. Gov Kodos basically proved as much with that comment.
And you are not doing this to Tuvok and Neelix?
No, I'm not. They're victims of an accident. That's not dehumanizing them at all. You're assigning blame for the accident to Tuvix when he didn't even exist before the accident happened.
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Old April 29 2013, 11:54 PM   #584
horatio83
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Indeed. I have no idea what all of this has to do with organ donation by the way.

It was horrible accident as death and birth went hand in hand and as the process is reversible.
This makes it psychologically much more difficult than just death (which is of course already hard enough). It's kinda like when a mother dies during birth. If the father wasn't too eager to get a child in the first place he might blame this child for the death of his wife. It is understandable and human but it is also detestable and irrational.

So let's think about Tuvix in a rational way. Either he lives on while Tuvok and Neelix remain dead or he is killed such than Tuvok and Neelix are resurrected. Whatever you do is wrong. And no, Tuvix acting as a constant reminder that Tuvox and Neelix are no more because he is a merger of both (or in short, that he is a freak) is no argument for his death. In matters of life and death we should really try to be as rational as possible.
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Old April 30 2013, 12:05 AM   #585
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dal Rassak wrote: View Post
There's a lot of comparison to the 7 of 9 situation. In my opinion the same principle applies both times, and that's why the decision is correct both times:
7 of 9 was born Annika Hanssen, a normal, intact human being. She was assimilated against her will and her entire being subsumed and twisted. Seperating her from the Borg collective is merely restoring her to her natural state. What happened to her should never have happened in the first place. Exactly the same goes for Tuvok and Neelix - seperating them out again restores them to their previous natural state, nothing else. In fact it could be argued that letting the "merged" creature continue to exist, that would in effect have ended the life of two distinct individuals. I still don't see how that could even have been considered.
To restore Anika Hansen would have meant bringing the 7 year old girl out again from the other side of all that Borg Horror. Deleting all those horrible experiences, deleting the thousands of other personalities whispering math and secrets into her ear, deleting the repositiory of the Collectives general knowledge, as well as forever and completely silencing her hidden experiences of growing up in the garden of Unimatrix Zero.

That creature Janeway decided to raise as a daughter was not a human beng at all but a patchwork quilt remnant of the Borg Collective.

Would Seven Year old Anika have wanted to live her own life, or would she have been hunky dorey to have been a Borg slave for the next 20 years, if she had an option? If they wound back the clock in her mind to the the preBorg seven year old version... It would have been easy to also give Anika the body of a seven year old to match her intellect rather than leaving a childs mind in the frame of a 28 year old sex goddess and waiting for Kim to hit on her.

(Like in those episodes of Arrested Development where Michael didn't notice that Charlize Theron was retarded because she was so attractive and spoke in an english accent.)
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