RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,718
Posts: 5,214,702
Members: 24,211
Currently online: 950
Newest member: dmhp32


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 28 2013, 09:59 PM   #1
JediKnightButler
Captain
 
JediKnightButler's Avatar
 
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
View JediKnightButler's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to JediKnightButler Send a message via AIM to JediKnightButler Send a message via Yahoo to JediKnightButler
Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Following the events of "Empok Nor", would it not have made sense for the Federation to take control of Empok Nor and make it into a Federation starbase a la Deep Space Nine? Seems like a missed opportunity to me though I suppose that it's possible that they might not have had the time and/or resources to fix it up as it was discovered(?) near the start of the Dominion War but still.....Were there any official reasons given anywhere why they didn't? And there was not one but two more trips to the station during the season. I would speculate that there might have been a treaty stipulation between the Federation and Cardassians but any treaties with the Cardies were pretty much moot at that point anyway.........
__________________
Do or do not. There is no try.
JediKnightButler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 10:01 PM   #2
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

In the novels set after the series finale, Empok Nor was used as a source of replacement components for DS9.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 10:10 PM   #3
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

JediKnightButler wrote: View Post
Following the events of "Empok Nor", would it not have made sense for the Federation to take control of Empok Nor and make it into a Federation starbase a la Deep Space Nine?
It was probably too badly damaged to be returned to full operation.
__________________
Taysiders in Space. In amungst ye!

"Set phasers tae malky!"
Mr. Laser Beam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 10:13 PM   #4
MickJo1701
Commander
 
MickJo1701's Avatar
 
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Empok Nor was located in the Trivas system inside Cardassian space, I doubt they would be fond of the idea of Starfleet setting up a base inside their territory, most likely it would have started the war.
MickJo1701 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 10:14 PM   #5
JediKnightButler
Captain
 
JediKnightButler's Avatar
 
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
View JediKnightButler's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to JediKnightButler Send a message via AIM to JediKnightButler Send a message via Yahoo to JediKnightButler
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
JediKnightButler wrote: View Post
Following the events of "Empok Nor", would it not have made sense for the Federation to take control of Empok Nor and make it into a Federation starbase a la Deep Space Nine?
It was probably too badly damaged to be returned to full operation.
It looked to be running pretty well in "Covenant". At the time of "Empok Nor", I'd probably agree with that assessment. It always looked weird situated on its side- at least in "Empok Nor" and "The Magnificent Ferengi".
__________________
Do or do not. There is no try.
JediKnightButler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 10:16 PM   #6
JediKnightButler
Captain
 
JediKnightButler's Avatar
 
Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
View JediKnightButler's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to JediKnightButler Send a message via AIM to JediKnightButler Send a message via Yahoo to JediKnightButler
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

MickJo1701 wrote: View Post
Empok Nor was located in the Trivas system inside Cardassian space, I doubt they would be fond of the idea of Starfleet setting up a base inside their territory, most likely it would have started the war.
Well, that does make more sense. Of course, following the war having a starbase there could help the Cardies with their reconstruction having the Federation Alliance setting up a presence there not unlike the Federation did with Bajor and DS9......
__________________
Do or do not. There is no try.
JediKnightButler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 10:26 PM   #7
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

JediKnightButler wrote: View Post
It always looked weird situated on its side- at least in "Empok Nor" and "The Magnificent Ferengi".
Which was a silly conceit, since there's no up or down in space. It wasn't "on its side," it's just that they chose to tilt the camera relative to it as a visual shorthand to convey "damaged and listing" to our gravity-conditioned eyes.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 11:01 PM   #8
Melakon
Rear Admiral
 
Melakon's Avatar
 
Location: Unmarked grave, Ekos
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Did they have a CGI station yet for those episodes? I'm thinking it wasn't until the final episode for that big pullback shot. If they had, Empok Nor could have been done with lights off and a partial pylon or ring exposing superstructure.
__________________
Curly: Moe, Larry, the cheese! Moe, Larry, the cheese! (Horses Collars, 1935)
Melakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 11:40 PM   #9
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Christopher wrote: View Post
JediKnightButler wrote: View Post
It always looked weird situated on its side- at least in "Empok Nor" and "The Magnificent Ferengi".
Which was a silly conceit, since there's no up or down in space. It wasn't "on its side," it's just that they chose to tilt the camera relative to it as a visual shorthand to convey "damaged and listing" to our gravity-conditioned eyes.
Agreed, it's the same when we see ships in many shots. They could be flying at an angle upside down for all we know.

Melakon wrote: View Post
Did they have a CGI station yet for those episodes? I'm thinking it wasn't until the final episode for that big pullback shot. If they had, Empok Nor could have been done with lights off and a partial pylon or ring exposing superstructure.
Yes, I believe that is the true, the last shot of DSN was the first and only CGI shot of the station.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2013, 12:02 AM   #10
bullethead
Fleet Captain
 
bullethead's Avatar
 
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

JediKnightButler wrote: View Post
Following the events of "Empok Nor", would it not have made sense for the Federation to take control of Empok Nor and make it into a Federation starbase a la Deep Space Nine?
Not really. DS9 was a pretty unique situation, where the inhabitants of the planet that owned the station asking the Federation for help operating it. Starfleet had a decent amount of peace time to pour resources into the station to fix most of the problems, but fixing Empok Nor would be a waste of military resources when it was obvious that the Dominion War was right around the corner. Not only that, but operating two ex-Cardassian stations meant that they'd be dependent on their soon-to-be adversaries for parts that they couldn't make themselves.

That said, I could see them trying to do that in the post-war period, but it might be easier to build an all-new starbase than refit something built by people whose cities and industries were blasted to rubble.
__________________
A business man and engineer discuss how to launch a communications satellite in the 1960s:
Biz Dev Guy: Your communications satellite has to be the size, shape, and weight of a hydrogen bomb.
bullethead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2013, 10:53 AM   #11
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

it might be easier to build an all-new starbase
Agreed. We never got an indication that Starfleet or the UFP would find it difficult to erect a starbase in the technological sense. Politics drove them to adopt and adapt Terok Nor, and politics may have played a role in obtaining Farpoint, too. But for all we know, constructing a starbase from scrap is fairly trivial - perhaps even simpler, cheaper and faster than building a much smaller starship because the base doesn't need to move at warp.

What I find quite interesting is the Cardassian side of this equation. Why did they build two seemingly identical stations? Terok Nor was supposedly optimized for controlling and strip-mining Bajor. Was Empok Nor supposed to augment Terok Nor at Bajor, but was abandoned in mid-tow for some reason? Or was it destined for another conquered planet very similar to Bajor?

OTOH, if its location in the middle of nowhere was its intended assignment, why was it of the exact same shape and design as a station intended to operate on fairly low planetary orbit?

Regardless of whether towed in place or built in situ, Empok Nor suggests that even the Cardassian Union can abandon large structures of that sort without much concern - this further implying that their construction is a relative triviality, even for entities weaker than the UFP.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2013, 04:07 PM   #12
bullethead
Fleet Captain
 
bullethead's Avatar
 
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Timo wrote: View Post
What I find quite interesting is the Cardassian side of this equation. Why did they build two seemingly identical stations? Terok Nor was supposedly optimized for controlling and strip-mining Bajor. Was Empok Nor supposed to augment Terok Nor at Bajor, but was abandoned in mid-tow for some reason? Or was it destined for another conquered planet very similar to Bajor?

OTOH, if its location in the middle of nowhere was its intended assignment, why was it of the exact same shape and design as a station intended to operate on fairly low planetary orbit?
Maybe the Cardassians use a really flexible station design that can be used for ore processing or whatever when in orbit of a planet or as a dedicated military resupply and repair facility (if Empok Nor was intended to be out in the middle of nowhere). It would make building the things a lot easier, since you'd only need to pick different modules for each role while keeping the same design and structure for all the stations.
__________________
A business man and engineer discuss how to launch a communications satellite in the 1960s:
Biz Dev Guy: Your communications satellite has to be the size, shape, and weight of a hydrogen bomb.
bullethead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2013, 04:35 PM   #13
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

^ I find that very likely. Non-canon though this may be, it's implied in the novels that the Nor-class station design is easily adaptable to different mission profiles.
__________________
Taysiders in Space. In amungst ye!

"Set phasers tae malky!"
Mr. Laser Beam is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2013, 08:41 PM   #14
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

This would make plenty of sense. Which is why sort of prefer the idea that Terok Nor was not built in situ (a concept giving it a tad too much "uniqueness") but rather manufactured in a centralized facility of some sort and then towed in place...

The DS9 Tech Manual description of the form of Terok Nor being true to function would have to be largely ignored, then - the pylons would not exist in order to allow for efficient flow of ore from top to bottom or whatever, because clearly this is not the function they serve on Empok Nor. Then again, the DS9 TM also claims that the shape of the station is an architectural choice, with style perhaps being more important than function after all - the station is said to resemble the buildings of the famous architect Tavor Kell.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2013, 09:57 PM   #15
tomswift2002
Captain
 
Re: Why didn't the Federation salvage Empok Nor?

Of course with DS9/Terok Nor neither Starfleet or the Federation owned the actual station, so anything that was installed on the station had to be approved by both Bajor and the Federation. (Remember in the Circle episodes everyone stayed behind to pull out all the Federation equipment because the Bajorans were evicting the Federation; plus in "Call To Arms" Kira had to lodge that protest with Sisko on behalf of the Bajorans to say that Starfleet and the Federation were illegal holding DS9, not to mention that in the pilot as well Sisko told Quark that the station was still a Bajoran station and all Starfleet and the Federation were there for were to administrate!)
tomswift2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:51 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.