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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 28 2013, 06:27 PM   #256
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

horatio83 wrote: View Post
But I fail to see the benefits of the actions of the Maquis besides providing spotlight. If you are aware of any others I am all ears.
Well they did seem to be kicking the Cardassians asses up until the joined up with the Dominion.
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Old April 28 2013, 06:38 PM   #257
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

I thought more along the lines of something more boring like re-establishing peace in the DMZ and keeping the Cardassians from messing with them instead of giving them an excuse to screw them even harder.
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Old April 28 2013, 06:54 PM   #258
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I thought more along the lines of something more boring like re-establishing peace in the DMZ and keeping the Cardassians from messing with them instead of giving them an excuse to screw them even harder.
Well seeing as the TNG era federation seems to treat its problems as something to ignore for the most part until it goes away I don't see how that would work. Especially since the Maquis seem a little pissed that the federation didn't even realize there was a problem at first and then jumped down their throats when they tried to solve it the only way they could so their less likely to give a crap about their views on the situation.

Oh and I just want to respond to this real quick

[QUOTE=horatio83;8014906]
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
And we know from recent history that that actually doesn't always work, hell the main reason it worked in Egypt was that the military refused to take any actions against the protesters.
I don't follow you here. You claim that peaceful resistance hasn't worked in recent history and then provide an example which shows that it has?

1)It only worked becuase the military refused to take any actions against the protesters

2) We also have the example of Libya which needed fighting to get rid of their dictator.

Also if you admit that it doesn't work all the time what makes you think it would work in this situation.
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Old April 28 2013, 07:29 PM   #259
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Ehm, the military killed hundreds of people during the Egyptian revolution.

Anyway, the Maquis isn't the same as a popular uprising. As I already said, the best comparison is with Palestine and the error of the Maquis is that they believe that THEY ALONE can fight against the Cardassians.
Only the Federation can monitor the DMZ so the goal of the Maquis should be to get the attention of their government and once they got it cease hostilities. Via continuing to fight the Cardassians they give them a justification for a military presence in the DMZ and make the task of the Federation much harder.

It is no more a simple matter of a one-sided treaty violation after which the Federation would have had the diplomatic high ground (and being able to tell the other side that they are the only ones who fucked up matters!)..
Now it is a mess and the Feds can no more pretend that only the Cardassians misbehave. Their citizens are aggressive as well and the Maquis dealt them a diplomatic bad hand.

Let's not forget that the Maquis also started to fight against the Federation pretty quickly. How is that supposed to achieve anything? A bunch of pissed-off settlers can hardly win against such major powers, they just fight to make a point and not to actually achieve peace. Fighting for a just cause creates this warm feeling in your heart just like demonstrating for this or that during a rainy day does. But feeling good about yourself doesn't matter, outcomes do.
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Old April 28 2013, 08:05 PM   #260
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Why shouldn't the Maquis fight back against the Federation? From the very first episode they appeared in the Federation was going after them.
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Old April 28 2013, 08:13 PM   #261
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Which story do you refer to?
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Old April 28 2013, 08:27 PM   #262
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

horatio83 wrote: View Post
the error of the Maquis is that they believe that THEY ALONE can fight against the Cardassians.
They probably felt that way seeing as the federation wasn't very dependable seeing as they were ignorant of what was going on and their usual way of handling other governments doing something they don't like is to impotently complain at them and only do that.

Only the Federation can monitor the DMZ
Except by that point the Maquis didn't accept federation authority any more and as far as their concerned they aren't apart of it anymore.

so the goal of the Maquis should be to get the attention of their government
They didn't seem to think of the federation as their government anymore.

and once they got it cease hostilities.
You make it sound like the Cardassians were just going to give up after one set back their history on the shos says otherwise.

Via continuing to fight the Cardassians they give them a justification for a military presence in the DMZ and make the task of the Federation much harder.
Well if they were doing their job when they were supposed to instead of just assuming the Cardassians would honor the treaty when they've show no inclination to do so in the past things wouldn't have gotten that bad.

It is no more a simple matter of a one-sided treaty violation after which the Federation would have had the diplomatic high ground (and being able to tell the other side that they are the only ones who fucked up matters!)..
Actually it doesn't seem to matter in the trekverse that much.

Now it is a mess and the Feds can no more pretend that only the Cardassians misbehave. Their citizens are aggressive as well and the Maquis dealt them a diplomatic bad hand.
Again it's a mess of their own making becuase they were naive idiots.
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Old April 28 2013, 08:33 PM   #263
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Which story do you refer to?
Their first appearance is what he's talking about.

And if I'm remembering it right then the federation went after them before they discovered the treaty violations had occurred, as the federation becoming aware of what the Cardassians had done was part of Sisko's final attempt to get Hudson to end the Maquis which Hudson seemed to shoot down as too little too late.
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Old April 28 2013, 08:47 PM   #264
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Ah, this was The Maquis. Well, a high-ranking Starfleet officer defects. What the hell should the Federation do, just idly sit by? Of course they will go after him, he is a defector and possible a traitor.

Still waiting for the arguments that points out how the actions of the Maquis serve the goal of peace.
I already made my point, peace treaty plus decent monitoring do the trick whereas attacking the Feds or the Cardassians doesn't. Fighting against the bullies on the schoolyard is heroic but if it doesn't end their nastiness it is pointless in the long-run.
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Old April 29 2013, 01:50 AM   #265
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

My view on the rise and fall of the Maquis would be, "Well, what did you think was going to happen?"

For a group that claimed they wanted peace they seemed a hell of a lot more concerned with agitating the situation than doing anything that would resolve the problems.
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Old April 29 2013, 08:20 PM   #266
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

horatio83 wrote: View Post

I already made my point, peace treaty plus decent monitoring do the trick whereas attacking the Feds or the Cardassians doesn't. Fighting against the bullies on the schoolyard is heroic but if it doesn't end their nastiness it is pointless in the long-run.

A peace treaty the Cardassians were doing their best to break from day one. The Federation refused to force Cardassia to uphold it all "in the name of peace." The agreement reached by Sisko and Dukat in the Maquis was each side reigns in it's people. The Cardassians never did that.

To take your "schoolyard" metaphor a step further. So the Cardassian bully is beating up the Maquis kid and taking his lunch money. So he cries and cries to the Federation teacher. Who does nothing about it. Heck sometimes the teacher is actively holding the Maquis kid down while the Cardassian bully takes the lunch money. So yeah... they chose to fight.

And as innocent sounding as taking lunch money sounds, it's more along the lines of destruction of property, rape, and murder.
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Old April 29 2013, 08:47 PM   #267
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

If you mess with the bullies and the teacher you cannot whine when the teacher smacks you. Last time I checked only teachers can establish peace on the schoolyard.

Care to point out how the actions of the Maquis are anything but detrimental to achieving peace in the DMZ? This is what I care about. Heroic macho separatist bullshit? No thanks.
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Old April 29 2013, 11:03 PM   #268
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

horatio83 wrote: View Post
If you mess with the bullies and the teacher you cannot whine when the teacher smacks you. Last time I checked only teachers can establish peace on the schoolyard.

Care to point out how the actions of the Maquis are anything but detrimental to achieving peace in the DMZ? This is what I care about. Heroic macho separatist bullshit? No thanks.

"detrimental to achieving peace?" I think the other poster's point was that there was already a lack of peace. By definition, if you're already being bullied, then there isn't peace. Whether you acknowledge that or not by fighting back or just taking it, there still isn't "peace."
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Old April 29 2013, 11:04 PM   #269
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

I suppose horatio would want the Maquis colonists women to just spread their legs to their Cardassian rapists in the name of peace.
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Old April 29 2013, 11:15 PM   #270
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

And you just want millions of Federation citizens die in a second war with the Cardassians. Can we stop the hyperbole and emotional bullshitting and get back to the core of the issue?

I never claimed that the Maquis are nasty bastards or whatever. My argument was that they should do a little bit of violence, Intifada style, to get the attention of their central government. Then they should lay down their weapons and try to lobby hard for better monitoring of the DMZ.
That's a path towards peace. Care to point out how fighting with the Cardassians AND the Federation achieves anything? As I already pointed out, the violence of the Maquis gave the Cardassians an excuse to maintain a military presence in the DMZ and ship even more weapons to the colonies (you can use your ships as cover and as transport vessels). They weren't just a bunch of colonists who defended their colonies from local bullies, they had spaceships and led a guerrilla war.

I don't have problems with political violence. Gee, I defended the Jacobins in this very thread! But you always gotta analyze the specific situation and check out whether violence and what kind of violence (in this case few weeks or months of Maquis action until Federation newspapers report about the problems in the DMZ) helps you to achieve your goal.


If I may end this with a personal note, my grandaunt is the only one who of this generation who ever liked to talk about WWII. When the French troops came after the war some guys of the Légion étrangère misbehaved and started to rape women in the village. The people in the village sent somebody to report to a higher ranked officer in a nearby town to sort out this issue. Of course they could have also picked up weapons and used them against the rapists but I doubt that the outcome would have been good. So much about Maquis style solutions.
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