RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 147,046
Posts: 5,803,200
Members: 26,061
Currently online: 471
Newest member: Ulvirfaust

TrekToday headlines

TrekToday http://www.trektoday.com/content Daily Star Trek news Sun, 02 Aug 2015 16:53:37 +0000 en-US hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.3 Retro Review: Learning Curve http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/retro-review-learning-curve/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/retro-review-learning-curve/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 21:16:02 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41256 Tuvok attempts to train four Maquis crewmembers who are having difficulty following Starfleet protocols.

Plot Summary: Lieutenant Dalby discovers a malfunctioning bio-neural gel pack and replaces it without getting authorization, which causes several systems ship-wide to stop working. Tuvok expresses concern to Janeway that Dalby and some other Maquis crewmembers are not trained or disciplined enough to work on a Starfleet vessel. Though Janeway is more worried about the possibility of multiple gel pack failures disabling Voyager’s systems, she recommends an on-the-job training course for the crewmembers having the greatest difficulties. Chakotay gives onetime Starfleet Academy instructor Tuvok a list of possible candidates, from which Tuvok selects four junior officers – impulsive Dalby, belligerent Henley, unfocused Chell, and bitter Gerron – who deeply resent being singled out for extra attention. The group complains when Tuvok insists that they remove all traces of their personal style from their professional demeanor and marches out after what they consider to be an unfair physical exercise. Neelix offers Tuvok some wisdom about plant stalks needing to be flexible, which Tuvok at first takes to mean that the young crewmembers are too rigid, then discovers that Neelix means to criticize himself and his teaching methods. He tries to get to know Dalby and realizes that some of the Maquis crewmembers suffered traumas that make it impossible for them to become contented, well-adjusted Starfleet officers overnight. Meanwhile, the Doctor discovers that Neelix’s attempt to make cheese has cultivated a bacteria that now infects the gel packs. The Doctor proposes raising the temperature to help the gel packs fight off the infection, but although the gel packs are saved, Tuvok and his unhappy team become trapped in a cargo bay where Gerron is injured. Dalby becomes irate when Tuvok orders him to get to safety with Henley and Chell, but when Tuvok himself violates procedure, risking his life to save Gerron, the Maquis officers are impressed and promise to work harder to obey the rules.

Analysis: I didn’t like “Learning Curve” when it first aired for its obnoxious attitude toward Maquis dissidents and indeed toward anyone who refused to assimilate entirely into Starfleet’s arbitrary regulations, which I thought at the time might just reflect my lack of understanding of how military protocols worked. But it rubs me the wrong way even more so now that we’ve seen some of the history of Vulcan intolerance in Enterprise, and now that we know the Maquis will be asked to give up their sense of belonging to their own cultures as well as their identities as members of an organization in conflict with Starfleet (the latter a demand that’s completely justified on a mission like Voyager’s, though I note that Worf was allowed to wear the accoutrements of a Klingon warrior on duty even when the Klingons were at war with the Federation). Of course it’s a problem that many of the Maquis have not had Starfleet training in teamwork, physical fitness, even self-protection, though I might note that Neelix and Kes haven’t either. It would seem both reasonable and fair for Tuvok to include them in a course to get underprepared crewmembers ready for life traveling through the Delta Quadrant, particularly since Kes had never left her village, let alone her homeworld, until just before Voyager arrived. The cheese incident that almost destroys the bio-neural gel packs is a far more heinous betrayal of safety protocols than the replacement of one of those gel packs, even if Dalby is rude when reprimanded while Neelix only stammers in embarrassment. And surely there are Starfleet crewmembers as well as Maquis who were unprepared to have a brief mission into the Badlands turn into a potentially lifelong journey? Couldn’t many of the junior officers use a refresher course in focus and teamwork? If Janeway and Chakotay’s goal is to get their two crews functioning as a single unit with the same ease with which Torres now works with Carey, they’d be well advised to include some Starfleet officers in the remedial class even just for show. Not so long ago, Tom Paris was a criminal and Torres was punching fellow officers, while now they’re fourth and fifth in the command chain; seems like a lot of people on that ship could use a bit of extra attention.

And although Tuvok may have been an Academy instructor for more than a decade, he seems like the wrong person to be leading an exercise in new-to-Starfleet teamwork. These angry, demoralized Maquis crewmembers need a counselor, not a disciplinarian; the morale officer might do them more good, and indeed does them more good when he lectures Tuvok, than a stern Vulcan whom they consider a traitor to their cause. I think it’s a mistake that we see the senior officers’ point of view rather than that of the recruits, since we don’t get to learn the positive independent-minded aspects of what Chakotay dismisses as “the Maquis way.” A strong left hook may get someone hauled before a disciplinary committee in Starfleet, but we’ve had such behavior by the Klingons rammed down our throats for years now as something we should admire, so it just doesn’t look particularly outrageous when a Maquis crewmember does precisely what a Klingon would do in a similar situation of being singled out for his temper. Apart from Dalby, who joined the Maquis because Cardassians brutalized his girlfriend, we never get to know the Maquis crewmembers, and the more Tuvok talks, the more arrogant he seems, like the obnoxious Vulcans of “Take Me Out to the Holosuite” rather than thoughtful, nuanced individuals like Spock and Sarek. Now that the US military and other such organizations have relaxed their rules about whether and when soldiers can wear yarmulkes, hijabs, and other items directly related to the practice of religion, I feel even more justified in my fury against Tuvok when he orders Gerron to take off his Bajoran earring – an accessory quite different from the headband that Tuvok forbids Henley to wear. The Bajoran earring is a symbol of faith. It’s also a mark of one’s family and social caste, two things that the young Gerron has lost being stranded 70,000 light years from home. Whether he had lost those already in a traumatic incident that led him to join the Maquis, as Dalby seems to believe, or whether he joined the Maquis out of sympathy for the settlers’ desire to protect their homes, like Kasidy Yates, Gerron is clearly clinging to this one meaningful relic of his former life, which Tuvok orders him to put away without any care for its significance.

Clearly, Tuvok is obsessed with the letter of the law rather than its spirit – he’s closer to being Javert from Les Miserables than was Sisko when Eddington mocked him with that sobriquet – but given the pettiness of the Vulcans we saw in many TNG and DS9 episodes, I gather we’re supposed to assume that it’s because Tuvok’s a Vulcan, for whom logic demands holding even to the most trivial of regulations. But I can’t understand why Chakotay agrees to let someone whom he thought served his own cause, then turned out to have been working behind his back all along, serve as corrections officer for other Maquis crewmembers. Chakotay’s facial tattoo would not be permitted even in the current US military, and I’d love to hear his response if Tuvok ordered him to remove it or cover it up. He’s usually a champion of diversity and broadmindedness, yet he seems amused at the thought of having four shipmates for whom he was once responsible, who are as troubled as they are troubling, put under Tuvok’s yoke. Of course ship-wide discipline is important in a crisis, as we see when it takes much of the crew working together to solve the problem with the gel packs, but a rigid dress code for people who will be working together for many years can hardly be the element that makes them see themselves as a team. It will be acknowledging, understanding, accepting, and taking advantage of their differences which will accomplish that. If the Starfleet uniform serves to bond Voyager’s crew in early days, it later serves to homogenize them; no wonder Sisko preferred spending his off-duty hours in African dress and Kira never stopped wearing her Bajoran earring even when in Starfleet uniform. “Learning Curve” fails in its effort to be “Lower Decks” because it fears to let us get to know and admire the quirks of the individual Maquis, erasing their distinct histories and grievances even as Janeway’s off playing traditional British governess in a traditional British novel knockoff. She needs to spend more time thinking about exactly which aspects of the Federation she plans to keep thriving on her ship as it creeps toward home.

]]>
http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/retro-review-learning-curve/feed/ 5
Star Trek: The Exhibition In Washington State http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-the-exhibition-in-washington-state/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-the-exhibition-in-washington-state/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 19:00:37 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41252 Star Trek: The Exhibition will be arriving at the Washington State Fair in September.

The Washington State Fair will take place September 11-27 in Puyallup.

Star Trek: The Exhibition, under license by CBS Consumer Products, will run for seventeen days and gives visitors the opportunity to enjoy an interactive, museum-style experience of one of the largest collections of authentic Star Trek artifacts and information ever put on public display. This is a separate ticketed exhibit, and requires Fair admission. Exhibit tickets can be purchased in advance for $6.50 until Sept 10 here, or $8 at the State Fair. Children five years and under are free in the exhibit with a paid adult. Online orders are subject to standard processing fees.

The Exhibition brings visitors into the Star Trek universe and allows them to connect with iconic Star Trek moments. Throughout this experience, visitors, especially younger visitors and youth, will be inspired and motivated to seek out more education, and perhaps ignite a passion for lifelong learning and careers in science and technology.

Star Trek fans and novices alike will have a first-hand interactive experience to explore the worlds, wisdom, science, stories, cultures, characters, fashions and fantasies of the Star Trek universe. In the States, and around the world, Star Trek has become a sub-culture for many, supported by countless fan conventions and fan gatherings where many regularly gather and role-play in their favorite Star Trek characters.

“Among the main attractions of The Exhibition is the opportunity to sit in the legendary Captain’s chair where Captain Kirk and subsequently Captain Picard took command of the U.S.S. Enterprise; the opportunity to pose in front of a replica of the U.S.S. Enterprise; and one-of-a-kind displays, interactive kiosks and rare photo opportunities.”

]]>
http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-the-exhibition-in-washington-state/feed/ 0
August-September 2015 Trek Conventions And Appearances http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/august-september-2015-trek-conventions-and-appearances/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/august-september-2015-trek-conventions-and-appearances/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:53:51 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41248 There will be nineteen conventions, shows or appearances in August and September that will feature actors of interest to Star Trek fans.

This listing of conventions and shows features actors from all of the televised series and several of the Star Trek movies.

August begins with The Official Star Trek Convention will be held Aug. 6-9 at the Rio Suites Hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada. In attendance at The Official Star Trek Convention will be Marc Alaimo, Vaughn Armstrong, Richard Arnold, Rene Auberjonois, Robert Beltran, Casey Biggs, John Billingsley, Brannon Braga, Bobby Clark, Joan Collins, Jeffrey Combs, Denise Crosby, Olivia d’Abo, Michael Dante, James Darren, Roxanne Dawson, Nicole de Boer, John de Lancie, Elizabeth Dennehy (Commander Shelby), Chris Doohan, Michael Dorn, Doug Drexler, Aron Eisenberg, Terry Farrell, Jonathan Frakes, Bryan Fuller, Joseph Gatt, Max Grodenchik, Richard Herd, J.G. Hertzler, Jennifer Hetrick (Vash), Manu Intiraymi, Sherry Jackson, Salome Jens, Dominic Keating, Walter Koenig, Alice Krige, Cirroc Lofton, Don Marshall, Chase Masterson, Robert Duncan McNeill, Anthony Montgomery, Ronald B. Moore, Kate Mulgrew, Larry Nemecek, Adam Nimoy, Denise Okuda, Mike Okuda, Robert O’Reilly, Linda Park, Ethan Phillips, Robert Picardo, Andrew Robinson, Rod Roddenberry, David L. Ross (Lt. Galloway and Lt. Johnson), Saul Rubinek, Tim Russ, Jeri Ryan, Judson Scott (Joachim from The Wrath of Khan), William Shatner, Mark Allen Shepherd (Morn), William Morgan Sheppard, Armin Shimerman, Alexander Siddig, Marina Sirtis, Rick Sternbach, Sir Patrick Stewart, Kitty Swink, George Takei, Connor Trinneer, Karl Urban, Nana Visitor, Garrett Wang, and Michael Westmore.

Next up is Shore Leave, to be held Aug. 7-9 at the Baltimore Hunt Valley Inn in Hunt Valley, Maryland. In attendance at Shore Leave will be Daniel Davis (Professor James Moriarty).

The Steel City Con will be held Aug. 7-9 at the Monroeville Convention Center in Monroeville, Pennsylvania. In attendance at Steel City Con will be Nichelle Nichols.

The Dublin Comic Con will be held Aug. 8-9 at the Convention Centre Dublin in Dublin, Ireland. In attendance at Dublin Comic Con will be Gates McFadden.

The Windsor ComiCon will be held Aug. 15-16 at the Caesars Windsor in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at Windsor ComiCon will be Marina Sirtis.

Crypticon Kansas City will take place Aug. 21-23 at the Howard Johnson Plaza in Kansas City, Missouri. In attendance at Crypticon Kansas City will be Sid Haig, Chris Sarandon, and Tony Todd.

Walker Stalker Con will be held Aug. 22-23 at the Westin Waterfront in Boston, Massachusetts. In attendance at Walker Stalker Con will be Denise Crosby.

The Central Coast Comic Con will take place Aug. 28-30 at the Ventura County Fairgrounds in Ventura, California. In attendance at Central Coast Comic Con will be Sid Haig (Lawgiver in Return of the Archons) and Deep Roy.

Wrapping up August will be the Bournemouth Film & Comic Con, to be held Aug. 29-30 at the Bournemouth International Centre in Bournemouth, England. In attendance at the Bournemouth Film & Comic Con will be Max Grodenchik.

September begins with Fan Expo Canada, which will be held Sept. 3-6 at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at Fan Expo Canada will be Jeffrey Combs, Malcolm McDowell, Jennifer Morrison, Kate Mulgrew, Ethan Phillips, Robert Picardo, and Jeri Ryan.

Dragon*Con will take place Sept. 4-7 at several hotels in Atlanta, Georgia. In attendance at Dragon*Con will be Terry Farrell, Jonathan Frakes, Gary Lockwood, and Paul McGillion.

Wizard World Comic Con San Jose will be held Sept. 4-6 at the San Jose Convention Center in San Jose, California. In attendance at Wizard World Comic Con San Jose will be Adrienne Barbeau.

The Alamo City Comic Con will be held Sept. 11-13 at the Henry B. Gonzalez Convention Center in San Antonio, Texas. In attendance at Alamo City Comic Con will be Olivia d’Abo and Ron Perlman.

The Wizard World Comic Con Pittsburgh will be held Sept. 11-13 at the David L. Lawrence Convention Center in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Appearing at Wizard World Comic Con Pittsburgh will be Colm Meaney and William Shatner.

RocCon will be held Sept. 11-13 at the Kodak Event Center in Rochester, New York. In attendance at RocCon will be Nichelle Nichols and Marina Sirtis.

Wizard World Comic Con Columbus will be held Sept. 18-20 at the Greater Columbus Convention Center in Columbus, Ohio. Appearing at Wizard World Comic Con Columbus will be Brent Spiner.

The Rose City Comic Con will be held Sept. 19-20 at the Oregon Convention Center in Portland, Oregon. In attendance at Rose City Comic Con will be Walter Koenig, Nichelle Nichols, and Wil Wheaton.

The Salt Lake Comic Con will be held Sept. 24-26 at the Salt Palace in Salt Lake City, Utah. Walter Koenig will be appearing at the Salt Lake Comic Con.

September wraps up with the London Comic Con, to be held Sept. 25-27 at the Western Fair District in London, Ontario, Canada. In attendance at the London Comic Con will be Nicole de Boer and Ron Perlman.

]]>
http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/august-september-2015-trek-conventions-and-appearances/feed/ 0
Shatner To Pen Book On Nimoy http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/shatner-to-pen-book-on-nimoy/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/shatner-to-pen-book-on-nimoy/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:45:58 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41245 William Shatner is planning on writing a book about his friend Leonard Nimoy.

Shatner considered Nimoy to be a brother to him.

“I’m writing a book about Leonard,” said Shatner. “I had a brother, whose life arc was so much like mine that we understood each other completely. Our age, our birth, the same types of problems in our marriages – our careers arced in the same manner.

“We had a great deal in common, Leonard and I. And thusly we were able to understand each other. I’ve lost a dear friend.”

]]>
http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/shatner-to-pen-book-on-nimoy/feed/ 5
Star Trek Beyond Building Continues http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-beyond-building-continues/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-beyond-building-continues/#comments Fri, 31 Jul 2015 18:42:43 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41236 More photographs from the Star Trek Beyond set have emerged.

Five new photos show the progress made in building the set which began back in May.

STB-1

The first photo shows the bare bones of the set back in May.

STB-2

The second photo shows what appeared to be a building with some broken trees on it.

STB-3

In the third photo, it becomes clear that the second photo was not a building, but hills with broken trees. The plywood of the second photo has been covered with dirt.

STB-4

STB-5

In the last two photos, the “hills” set is being expanded.

Larger-sized photos are available at the referring site.

]]>
http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/star-trek-beyond-building-continues/feed/ 0
Trinneer In Western Horror http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/trinneer-in-western-horror/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/trinneer-in-western-horror/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:14:05 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41232 Fans of Connor Trinneer will be able to see the actor in a western horror movie set to release on DVD and VOD beginning August 4.

The movie is called A Good Day To Die.

In A Good Day To Die, “Baron Emerson uses his vast wealth to travel the world and hunt. He does not hunt animals, he hunts warriors. The Baron arrives at the American frontier and is looking for his next prey. An outlaw gunslinger named Chamberlin who is in jail and set to be hanged. The Baron arranges for Chamberlin to be freed so that he can hunt him like an animal in a bloody game of life and death in the Wild West.”

Trinneer portrays the hunted Chamberlin, while Robert Koroluck is the hunter Baron Emerson. Others included in A Good Day To Die include Nadia Lanfranconi, Jay Kown, and Leia Perez.

A Good Day To Die was written and directed by Rene Perez.

The movie has already made its European debut, where it was released under the title Prey For Death.

For US fans, to pre-order A Good Day To Die, which sells for $8.46, head to the link located here.

 

]]>
http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/trinneer-in-western-horror/feed/ 8
Beam Me Up Scotty Figurines http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/beam-me-up-scotty-figurines/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/beam-me-up-scotty-figurines/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:10:46 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41229 Two new original series figures feature Kirk and Spock in the process of “beaming up.”

The figures will be available from Funko beginning next month.

Each poseable figure is 3 3/4″ in height and features a beaming effect (the bottom part of each character shows this effect). “Captain James T. Kirk [and Spock have five] points of articulation and features unique accessories and the 1980s style card back design.”

The Beaming Kirk and Spock ReAction figures will ship next month. Each sells for $12.99 and can be pre-ordered here for Kirk, and here for Spock.

]]>
http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/beam-me-up-scotty-figurines/feed/ 3
UK Auction To Feature Spock Costume http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/uk-auction-to-feature-spock-costume/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/uk-auction-to-feature-spock-costume/#comments Thu, 30 Jul 2015 17:08:35 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41226 TrekUKAuction073015

An auction to be held in the UK this autumn will feature a costume worn by Leonard Nimoy.

The Prop Store and Odeon Entertainment Memorabilia Live Auction will take place September 23.

The catalog for the auction isn’t available yet, but at least two Star Trek items will be auctioned.

A costume worn by Nimoy during the second season (blue shirt and black trousers) will be up for auction, and is expected to fetch up to £70,000.

Also in the auction will be a model starship used in The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine.

Other non-Trek items of interest include a Star Wars stormtrooper helmet, Arnold Schwarzenegger‘s jacket from Terminator 3, a Lord of the Rings Witch King’s dagger, and a set of claws worn by Hugh Jackman in X2:X-Men United.

In all, four-hundred-and-fifty items will be auctioned.

]]>
http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/uk-auction-to-feature-spock-costume/feed/ 1
Pine To Star In Wonder Woman http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pine-to-star-in-wonder-woman/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pine-to-star-in-wonder-woman/#comments Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:57:20 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41222 PineWonderWoman052815

Back in May, TrekToday reported that Chris Pine was in negotiations to star in Warner Bros. Wonder Woman; today comes word that Pine has signed on for the role.

Pine will be playing Steve Trevor, Diana Prince’s love interest.

In the Wonder Woman comics, Trevor “was an intelligence officer in the United States Army during World War II whose plane crashed on Paradise Island, the isolated homeland of the Amazons. He was nursed back to health by the Amazon princess Diana, who fell in love with him and followed him when he returned to the outside world. There she became Wonder Woman (and also his co-worker, Diana Prince).”

Pine’s deal reportedly includes sequel options.

Written by Jason Fuchs, Wonder Woman will be directed by Patty Jenkins. Pine will be starring with Gal Gadot, who will take on the role of Diana Prince.

Wonder Woman will be released June 23, 2017.

]]>
http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pine-to-star-in-wonder-woman/feed/ 0
Pegg Teases Elba Character http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pegg-teases-elba-character/ http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pegg-teases-elba-character/#comments Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:54:46 +0000 http://www.trektoday.com/content/?p=41218 Elba072915

Simon Pegg spoke briefly about the character that Idris Elba will be playing in Star Trek Beyond.

The character that Elba will be playing will be unique, Pegg promised.

“It’s a really interesting, complex character,” said Pegg. “We shouldn’t expect to see anything like Benedict Cumberbatch‘s creepy genius Khan from Star Trek Into Darkness in Elba’s performance, however. His performance is all his own.”

There’s a good reason that Elba’s villain is different than Cumberbatch’s. “Only because it would be a retread,” said Pegg. “What we don’t want to do is have the same kind of villain with the same motivation.”

]]>
http://www.trektoday.com/content/2015/07/pegg-teases-elba-character/feed/ 20


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 28 2013, 03:11 PM   #241
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

I totally agree that in this instance the case would take some time and land before a judge but I also think that Sona is basically right, the Sonak would most likely be removed and compensated for, not at least via superior access to whatever happens to the particles once they are extracted.
I think this "fuck property rights when a few people have resources which would benefit everybody" angle is where Sonak is coming from but alas, this is entirely hypothetical.

What the Federation does is, as Picard points out when he talks with Dougherty, an act of theft and kidnapping. We have a name for a powerful political entity taking something from a weak political entity: imperialism. If anybody can point out an historical example of a strong nation taking something from weak nation without raping it at the same time I am all ears.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 04:13 PM   #242
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I totally agree that in this instance the case would take some time and land before a judge but I also think that Sona is basically right, the Sonak would most likely be removed and compensated for, not at least via superior access to whatever happens to the particles once they are extracted.
I think this "fuck property rights when a few people have resources which would benefit everybody" angle is where Sonak is coming from but alas, this is entirely hypothetical.

What the Federation does is, as Picard points out when he talks with Dougherty, an act of theft and kidnapping. We have a name for a powerful political entity taking something from a weak political entity: imperialism. If anybody can point out an historical example of a strong nation taking something from weak nation without raping it at the same time I am all ears.

it would be hard to come up with a historical example because none would be very analogous. We're not talking about a fuel source like oil, or something similar.

The analogy would be more like a small island with a primitive tribe on it, and the island has the cure for cancer on it, but in order to get to the cure, the island would have to be made uninhabitable for a long time, and the tribe has no interest in the outside world and refuses to relocate.

And yes, you've summed up my attitude pretty well, actually. Property rights are important, but they take a back seat when the issue becomes "property rights of a few vs. the good of a much larger number."
__________________
"why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 04:23 PM   #243
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

I am very sympathetic to this attitude. In political terms it is basically an advocation of a strong, centralized progressive government (as opposed to lefties with slightly anarchic leaning who only play this game of "we gotta keep power in check"; no, we gotta take power) and one example in Trek would be the peace treaty with the Cardassians which I strongly approve of. Peace for trillions is more important than the property rights of millions of settlers.

I now think that the crucial dividing issue is my focus on rules and your focus on outcomes.
If I understand you correctly your point is that the Baku are screwed anyway. The Sona wanna take their planet and if they don't do it the Romulans or Klingons will do it sooner or later. The hippies are simply crushed so even a bad deal with the Federation is better for them.
My point is that the Feds have to play by the book. They are basically a soft power like the EU, not expanding via applying force but via being attractive. If they start to just take planets and rationalize it via correctly saying that the inhabitants are better off than if they had become conquered by the Romulans or Klingons they break their rules and ruin their reputation.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 04:30 PM   #244
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I am very sympathetic to this attitude. In political terms it is basically an advocation of a strong, centralized progressive government (as opposed to lefties with slightly anarchic leaning who only play this game of "we gotta keep power in check"; no, we gotta take power) and one example in Trek would be the peace treaty with the Cardassians which I strongly approve of. Peace for trillions is more important than the property rights of millions of settlers.

I now think that the crucial dividing issue is my focus on rules and your focus on outcomes.
If I understand you correctly your point is that the Baku are screwed anyway. The Sona wanna take their planet and if they don't do it the Romulans or Klingons will do it sooner or later. The hippies are simply crushed so even a bad deal with the Federation is better for them.
My point is that the Feds have to play by the book. They are basically a soft power like the EU, not expanding via applying force but via being attractive. If they start to just take planets and rationalize it via correctly saying that the inhabitants are better off than if they had become conquered by the Romulans or Klingons they break their rules and ruin their reputation.

yeah, that sums it up nicely. My view is the Baku are screwed anyway, the Federation might as well benefit from the situation rather than the Son'a alone, or some other power in the quadrant.

I'm a pragmatist and a consequentialist.
__________________
"why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 05:16 PM   #245
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

horatio83 wrote: View Post
and one example in Trek would be the peace treaty with the Cardassians which I strongly approve of. Peace for trillions is more important than the property rights of millions of settlers.
You mean the treaty the Cardassians wasted no time violating and it took a freaking Cardassian to let the federation know about that, and still they only gave a minor token response that didn't really solve anything and pretty much only cracked down on people who probably weren't even their citizens anymore because they didn't like the federation just sticking its head in the sand and ignoring the problem. becuase that kind sounds like a crappy treaty, seeing as the federation didn't seem interested in making sure the Cardassians actually followed its terms.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 05:18 PM   #246
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

But it sure prevented the Federation and Cardassia from ever going to war again.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 05:20 PM   #247
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
The analogy would be more like a small island with a primitive tribe on it, and the island has the cure for cancer on it, but in order to get to the cure, the island would have to be made uninhabitable for a long time, and the tribe has no interest in the outside world and refuses to relocate.
Except in this case there would be 8 to 10 other potential cures to cancer already available that their not pursuing becuase they never follow up on for some reason and the society in question that would benefit from it never really cared about it before that point in time.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 05:22 PM   #248
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

R. Star wrote: View Post
But it sure prevented the Federation and Cardassia from ever going to war again.
The funny thing is when you think about the consequences it actually contributed to the Dominion War since the Maquis kicking the Cardassians asses (really why is the federation worried about war with these people seeing as the suck at it) was what sold them on Dukat's let's join the Dominion idea.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 05:25 PM   #249
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
But it sure prevented the Federation and Cardassia from ever going to war again.
The funny thing is when you think about the consequences it actually contributed to the Dominion War since the Maquis kicking the Cardassians asses (really why is the federation worried about war with these people seeing as the suck at it) was what sold them on Dukat's let's join the Dominion idea.
Really... somehow I think the Klingons had more to do with that than a few disgruntled colonists with freighters and shuttles. Oh wait, the Founders started that war too. Either way, they willingly joined up and started a revanchist war against the Federation. Dukat never really mentioned the Klingons at all while he was in power aside from tactically.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 05:30 PM   #250
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
and one example in Trek would be the peace treaty with the Cardassians which I strongly approve of. Peace for trillions is more important than the property rights of millions of settlers.
You mean the treaty the Cardassians wasted no time violating and it took a freaking Cardassian to let the federation know about that, and still they only gave a minor token response that didn't really solve anything and pretty much only cracked down on people who probably weren't even their citizens anymore because they didn't like the federation just sticking its head in the sand and ignoring the problem. becuase that kind sounds like a crappy treaty, seeing as the federation didn't seem interested in making sure the Cardassians actually followed its terms.
Of course it wasn't OK that the Cardassians tried to arm their settlers in the demilitarized zone. If I remember correctly the Federation eventually decided to monitor the DMZ better and prevent weapon deployments.
But the people who later partly became Maquis could have simply left their colonies instead of stubbornly persist to continue to live their under Cardassian rule and, big surprise, being bullied by them.

I am firmly on the side of the Federation. Sure, they reacted too late to the Cardassian misdeeds in the DMZ but the Maquis did something far worse, they threatened the hard-earned peace and made it much harder for the Feds to solve this problem: we know from Jesus, Gandhi and Martin Luther King that sometimes the best way to defend yourself is not via picking up arms as this gives your enemy an easy excuse to crush you.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the colonists. They have chosen a hard life on the border and their life's work is materialized in their colony so they naturally don't wanna leave. But I also gotta pull a Spock here, their interests matters less than maintaining peace ... and while the Feds didn't expect beforehand that the Cardassians would lead a proxy war via arming their settlers they knew perfectly well that living under Cardassian rule will be nasty for those of their settlers who decide to stay.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger

Last edited by horatio83; April 28 2013 at 05:42 PM.
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 05:45 PM   #251
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
and one example in Trek would be the peace treaty with the Cardassians which I strongly approve of. Peace for trillions is more important than the property rights of millions of settlers.
You mean the treaty the Cardassians wasted no time violating and it took a freaking Cardassian to let the federation know about that, and still they only gave a minor token response that didn't really solve anything and pretty much only cracked down on people who probably weren't even their citizens anymore because they didn't like the federation just sticking its head in the sand and ignoring the problem. becuase that kind sounds like a crappy treaty, seeing as the federation didn't seem interested in making sure the Cardassians actually followed its terms.
Of course it wasn't OK that the Cardassians tried to arm their settlers in the demilitarized zone. If I remember correctly the Federation eventually decided to monitor the DMZ better and prevent weapon deployments.
But the people who later partly became Maquis could have simply left their colonies instead of stubbornly persist to continue to live their under Cardassian rule and, big surprise, being bullied by them.

I am firmly on the side of the Federation. Sure, they reacted too late to the Cardassian misdeeds in the DMZ but the Maquis did something far worse, they threatened the hard-earned peace and made it much harder for the Feds to solve this problem: we know from Jesus, Gandhi and Martin Luther King that sometimes the best way to defend yourself is not via picking up arms as this gives your enemy an easy excuse to crush you.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the colonists. They have chosen a hard life on the border and their life's work is materialized in their colony so they naturally don't wanna leave. But I also gotta pull a Spock here, their interests matters less than maintaining peace ... and while the Feds didn't expect beforehand that the Cardassians would lead a proxy war via arming their settlers they knew perfectly well that living under Cardassian rule will be nasty for those of their settlers who decide to stay.
Let's see... the Maquis colonists were getting raped by Cardassians, poised at public replicators, assaulted on numerous occasions as a daily occurrence. And your proposal is for them to peacefully protest and politely ask them to stop? That sure worked well for Jesus, King and Ghandi... wait, they were all killed.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 05:56 PM   #252
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

If Ghandi had attacked the Brits he would have provided them with an easy excuse to club him and his followers down. Ghandi did something far more "violent" than people with guns, he refused the authority of the Brits and thus changed the social order. Armed resistance seems revolutionary on the surface yet would have achieved nothing.

Back to Trek, the violence of the Maquis made it possible for the Cardassians to rationalize their military presence in the DMZ and supply their settlers even more easily with weapons ... which again made it harder for the UFP to finally solve this issue. And it should be obvious to each and every Maquis that only the UFP can solve it.

We are of course familiar with the Intifada argument from Palestine, i.e. the Maquis had to do something in order to create spotlight, otherwise the Federation would have never addressed the problem. I think that this is correct but only as long as the fighters realize that the only goal of violence is to create attention. Just like many people in Palestine haven't understood this most of the Maquis didn't understand it either which is why I am ultimately against their violence.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 06:02 PM   #253
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I am firmly on the side of the Federation. Sure, they reacted too late to the Cardassian misdeeds in the DMZ
And there in lies the problem they expected a group that had no problem defying a prior peace agreement to be totally trustworthy this time and didn't bother to keep checking to make sure they stay honest.

Which is why this treaty sounds like those impotent air fairy arms reduction agreements signed after World War I that didn't do squat in the long term.

but the Maquis did something far worse, they threatened the hard-earned peace and made it much harder for the Feds to solve this problem:
So its their fault becuase they didn't like getting killed while the federation twiddled its thumbs?

we know from Jesus, Gandhi and Martin Luther King that sometimes the best way to defend yourself is not via picking up arms as this gives your enemy an easy excuse to crush you.
And we know from recent history that that actually doesn't always work, hell the main reason it worked in Egypt was that the military refused to take any actions against the protesters.

their interests matters less than maintaining peace
Which it didn't mostly becuase the federation basically let the Klingons do whatever to hell they want with token resistance.

... and while the Feds didn't expect beforehand that the Cardassians would lead a proxy war via arming their settlers
Which they probably should have seeing as how the Cardassians had no problem trying to secretly rearm after the war, and the whole Circle business on Bajor showing that they have no problem doing under handed things to get what they want.

they knew perfectly well that living under Cardassian rule will be nasty for those of their settlers who decide to stay.
To be fair the had a Cardassian Gul telling some of them that as long as they don't cause trouble they wouldn't be bothered and seeing as the federation trusted the Cardassians without question why shouldn't they, Except again the Cardassians weren't very trust worthy were they.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 06:04 PM   #254
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

That same Cardassian Gul, Evek was hinted to be the one supplying weapons to the Cardassian colonists and later fabricated charges of terrorism against O'brien. Real trustworthy guy.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2013, 06:15 PM   #255
horatio83
Commodore
 
Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

The Cardassians are as trustworthy as the Romulans. So what? It certainly doesn't imply that the peace treaty is worthless. Or do you trust everybody you make a contract with?

As I already said, the error of the Federation was to monitor the DMZ not as well enough as e.g. the neutral zone with the Romulans. better supervision was necessary ... but prolonging hostilities, be it via no peace with the Cardassians at all or via the little war of the Maquis are not better options.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
And we know from recent history that that actually doesn't always work, hell the main reason it worked in Egypt was that the military refused to take any actions against the protesters.
I don't follow you here. You claim that peaceful resistance hasn't worked in recent history and then provide an example which shows that it has?
I don't claim by the way that peaceful resistance is ALWAYS the right way to proceed. Take 1789 France, there was no other way besides cutting of the head of the king and crushing the counter-revolutionary resistance.
But I fail to see the benefits of the actions of the Maquis besides providing spotlight. If you are aware of any others I am all ears.
__________________
The illegal we do immediately; the unconstitutional takes a little longer. - former US Secretary of State and unconvicted war criminal Henry Kissinger
horatio83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:51 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.