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Old April 27 2013, 03:08 PM   #316
stj
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

^^^(pointing at Sonak's post)How this relates to Star Trek can be stated simplistically enough. Some people think economics proves man and society are unimprovable, and imagining otherwise was Roddenberry's worst mistake. The refinements on this are very elaborate and long, but nothing really changes in the end.

As to pragmatic and empircal judgments, I really have to add then that pragmatic and empirical judgment of world trade and economic development refute Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage in interternational trade. Since Keyesianism is still based on this, it too is wrong.

But then, at this point, you will remember I am not qualified to decide who's doing right-wing propaganda and who's doing science.

PS This crosed with the response from horatio83. Stiglitz has no Margaret Thatcher. Stiglitz doesn't even have a Mont Pelerin Society. And to be honest I can't see that Woodford has much influence with the IMF. At this point in time, some papers that seem connected to the real world would be useful in teasing humanity with prospect of a change in IMF operations. Has there really been a sea change in policy anywhere but Japan? (And I may be fooled by the PR as to that!?)
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Old April 27 2013, 03:20 PM   #317
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

No. But you cannot put the blame entirely on academia. And talking about the IMF, they changed their opinion about austerity while all governments besides Japan still go down the path to hell.

To get back to Trek, I am a classical economist and I have no hard time imagining that growth plus consumption saturation will lead to something like the world of Trek. Non-pecuniary incentives matter. I never met a workaholic who worked so hard because he wanted to earn and consume much and everybody who is very rich doesn't use his money for consumption but for power.
Sure, this is rarely reflected in economic theory but then again it is hard to do in a methodological sense just like it is hard to model irrational behaviour systematically.
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Old April 27 2013, 10:34 PM   #318
Nightdiamond
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

horatio83 wrote: View Post
It is very obvious that replicator usage is either free or rationed (Sisko talks about having used up all of his transporter credits to beam home every evening as a cadet).
I take that to mean that as a cadet, he had only a limited number of times he can use the transporter, which would be termed as credits, but I could be wrong.

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
I just don't see any evidence of the supposed human isolation on earth. In Star Trek, humans are EVERYWHERE. We've even seen instances of a single human owning an entire planet. Humans never seem to have trouble booking a voyage on a civilian transport. Humans are seen at bars and restaurants outside of the Federation all the time. I don't know what a week on Risa costs, but plenty of humans seem able to afford it.

An offhand comment by Jake that he can't buy something because he's human just doesn't hold up to all the other evidence.
Notice that humans that do live in places other than earth, that they usually have jobs with other cultures that pay currency.

Like Kassidy Yates--she's human and works as a freighter captain for the Bajorans and other cultures.

So you have to wonder, if humans don't need money, why would she work so hard and risk going to prison for helping the Maquis...

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Quark was able to sell his shuttle here to someone, and purchase passage from someone here back to DS9, If he could have simply travel for free, saving himself money in the process, he could have gladly done so.
I dont know, either this new economy is far beyond our understanding, or its just weird.

Too many characters have gone on record as stating that no money exists in the 24th century too many times.

So here's a theoretical example ; It's the 24th century... Someone wants to buy a nice piece of property. They go to the person who owns it.

" How much can I buy it for? "
"It will be 250 credits/whatever."

"How much do you have in your account ?"

"About 3 credits"
"Sorry you cant have it unless you get 247 more."

To me, that conversation equals a discussion about money.
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Old April 28 2013, 05:33 AM   #319
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
Sisko talks about having used up all of his transporter credits to beam home every evening as a cadet
I take that to mean that as a cadet, he had only a limited number of times he can use the transporter, which would be termed as credits, but I could be wrong.
it would be interesting (and informative) to know exactly how Sisko came by his "transporter credits" in the first place. Allocated by the academy, provided by society, or purchased out of Sisko pocket?

SISKO: For the first few days ...
JAKE: You must have used up a month's worth of transporter credits.
SISKO: And after about the fifth, sixth day, you couldn't pry me from that campus.


How do you use up a month's worth of transporter credits with six round trips? If transporter use is free in a moneyless environment, Sisko's use of the system would have been unlimited. If his use were restricted by the academy to a dozen usages a month, would Jake reasonable know this? Jake might have been able to figured that young Sisko could only afford "a few days" worth of transporter travel in the course of any given month, should Sisko have been purchasing the transporter credits with his own money.

Too many characters have gone on record as stating that no money exists in the 24th century too many times.
But there are numerous examples of money's existence too. So what do you do?

horatio83 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
In the way pseudo-intellectuals use the term, no I am not "right wing."
Libertarian right-wing = economically right-wing.
That not what I was referring too.

Anti-intellectualism is by the way most frequently encountered on the right.
But that was. (thank you for playing)


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Old April 28 2013, 12:24 PM   #320
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
But there are numerous examples of money's existence too. So what do you do?
Accept that canon is self-contradictory and move on?
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Old April 28 2013, 01:08 PM   #321
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Roddenberry's Worst Ideas
Possibly continuing to use slightly-modified-to-avoid-paying-royalties versions of Franz Joseph's Star Fleet Technical Manual designs after the two had fallen out in the late 70's. Particularly the flag of the Federation. Now I know the story, every time I see it I think "rip off!"
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Old April 28 2013, 02:54 PM   #322
horatio83
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
horatio83 wrote: View Post
It is very obvious that replicator usage is either free or rationed (Sisko talks about having used up all of his transporter credits to beam home every evening as a cadet).
I take that to mean that as a cadet, he had only a limited number of times he can use the transporter, which would be termed as credits, but I could be wrong.
Yep, if the usage of the transporter is rationed for Starfleet cadets it is also rationed for citizens (respectively they have to pay for it yet it is strongly implied that there is no money). Which is of course problematic, standard economics tells us that there are benefits from trading and it is reasonable to assume that the demand for beaming widely varies. Picard's brother or Bones probably wouldn't touch the thing on Earth whereas somebody who travels a lot has more need for it so rationing is inefficient.

The only way you can rationalize the economic world of Trek is via saturation. People are happy with what they have and do not get pissed off if a luxury good like transporter usage is rationed. If the world is full of Harry Mudds who want more just for the sake of itself (real world equivalents would be e.g. rich people who have several houses or cars which they cannot really use) this doesn't work or to be more precise, only as long as there are few Harry Mudds this world can be stable.
In every society there are social norms and if the dominant norms condemn greed you can keep the numbers low.

Let's also not forget that in the real world the hyperrich do not care about wealth / high income as a means for consumption but as a means for respect / power. This channel is absent in the world of Trek.
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Old April 28 2013, 03:33 PM   #323
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

T'Girl wrote: View Post
In The Undiscovered Country (admittedly a movie not a series) the "crew" were shown to be sleeping in double tiered bunks.

And Data's and Worf's quarters were smaller than Picard's. I would imagine that junior officers/enlisted lacked windows in their personal quarters.
Also in Lower Decks Lavelle pointed out that one of the perks of him getting the promotion that was up for grabs would be getting his own room.
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Old April 28 2013, 03:53 PM   #324
R. Star
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Roddenberry's Worst Ideas
Possibly continuing to use slightly-modified-to-avoid-paying-royalties versions of Franz Joseph's Star Fleet Technical Manual designs after the two had fallen out in the late 70's. Particularly the flag of the Federation. Now I know the story, every time I see it I think "rip off!"
Why not? Didn't Roddenberry do the exact same thing by writing lyrics to the 60's Star Trek theme? To avoid paying royalties to the composer.

Always ironic... preaching hope and a better future without the evils of money and capitalism... all while ruthlessly squeezing every penny out of the system in the present.
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Old April 28 2013, 04:00 PM   #325
horatio83
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

I think you have to differentiate between personal behaviour and systemic problems. The CEO of BP isn't evil, he just followed the rules of the game. Roddenberry might have been a greedy bastard but he also imagined a world in which this behaviour was basically inexistant ... perhaps precisely because he was aware of his flaws?

I don't give a shit about people which is precisely why I want stuff like hunger and so on to be solved systemically. The opposite of this is a conservative pro-charity attitude, don't solve anything systemically, let the goodwill of people save the poor. Oscar Wilde pointed out why this cannot work:

They try to solve the problem of poverty, for instance, by keeping the poor alive; or, in the case of a very advanced school, by amusing the poor.
But this is not a solution: it is an aggravation of the difficulty. The proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible. And the altruistic virtues have really prevented the carrying out of this aim.


http://www.marxists.org/reference/ar...scar/soul-man/
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Old April 28 2013, 04:25 PM   #326
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

horatio83 wrote: View Post
I think you have to differentiate between personal behaviour and systemic problems. The CEO of BP isn't evil, he just followed the rules of the game. Roddenberry might have been a greedy bastard but he also imagined a world in which this behaviour was basically inexistant ... perhaps precisely because he was aware of his flaws?

I don't give a shit about people which is precisely why I want stuff like hunger and so on to be solved systemically. The opposite of this is a conservative pro-charity attitude, don't solve anything systemically, let the goodwill of people save the poor. Oscar Wilde pointed out why this cannot work:

They try to solve the problem of poverty, for instance, by keeping the poor alive; or, in the case of a very advanced school, by amusing the poor.
But this is not a solution: it is an aggravation of the difficulty. The proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible. And the altruistic virtues have really prevented the carrying out of this aim.


http://www.marxists.org/reference/ar...scar/soul-man/


"charity is a cold, gray loveless thing. If a rich man wants to help a poor man, he ought to pay his taxes gladly, not dole out money on a whim."

-Clement Attlee


isn't it ironic that "conservatives," with their supposed cynical view of Human nature, believe that people, acting out of the goodness of their hearts, will solve poverty through giving money voluntarily out of their pockets and volunteering at soup kitchens?


if consistent, they should view Trek's utopian society as realistic, since their solution to poverty is equally utopian.
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Old April 28 2013, 07:12 PM   #327
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Political conservatives believe that poverty is a just reward. Systemic action to alleviate poverty is intrinsically unjust, an immoral attempt to undo the verdicts of the market/God (no functional difference here.) Worse, taxes or any other perceived burden are aggravated injustice, punishing the virtuous in this vain attempt. And any attempt to systemically abolish poverty is a hubristic attempt to create utopia. Wealth and poverty are the only just and moral compulsions to labor. Everything else is by definition evil, like liberalism, socialism, communism, etc.

In practice, most philanthropy focuses intensely on moral reformation of its clients even to the point where it causes negative consquences. For instance, poorhouses were deliberately designed to be oppressive. The refusal to grant aid to households with unemployed husbands allegedly played a role in breaking up families in the Sixties, though I don't know how significant it was. Private philanthropists very commonly exercise prejudices in the choice of their objects of charity, then demand subservience as the unacknowledged price. Dickens was pretty accurate about philanthrophists.
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Old April 28 2013, 09:19 PM   #328
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

stj wrote: View Post
Political conservatives believe that poverty is a just reward.
This one does not.

R. Star wrote: View Post
Always ironic... preaching hope and a better future without the evils of money and capitalism... all while ruthlessly squeezing every penny out of the system in the present.
I had the same reaction awhile ago when I noticed that a large group of Occupy protestors had gathered inside my store (not to protest, just sort of chilling)...and they all had Starbucks cups in their hands.
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Old April 28 2013, 10:03 PM   #329
horatio83
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

You just prove our point. Conservatives merely care about personal acts, not about systemic matters. So a guy who buys Starbuck coffee yet joins a leftist protest has to be hypocritical just like somebody who is personally rich (a poor guy is of course envious) yet advocates redistribution is hypocritical. "You could just give it all to charity you hypocrite!"

I'll take this stuff seriously once charity pays the medical bills. At the moment it is just an act of narcissism. You feel so good about yourself when you give twenty bucks to a charity organization that helps this poor African kid. If you took the glasses from "They Live" and took a look at a random charity ad with a little African kid that has some injured lip it would say "spent the money such that you can forget about thinking about why the kid is so poor in the first place".

Don't get my wrong, kindness is a virtue and helping your friends, your family and this poor African kid is better than being a selfish asshole. But it is does not substitute political aka collective acts.
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Old April 28 2013, 10:16 PM   #330
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Re: Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Another bad idea of Roddenberry's was the no pockets in the future idea.

I mean where exactlyare they supposed to put stuff?
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