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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 28 2013, 06:57 AM   #31
AllStarEntprise
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

Both were ends justify the means scenarios. Both Sisko and Anakin were tempted and gave into their dark compulsions with the promise of greater rewards by someone. One is a master of deceit who prides himself on manipulation and telling half truths with the power of suggestion to achieve his goals and the other is a sith lord. We saw both Sisko and Anakin weigh the options of their decisions and chose their own selfish desires. While Sisko's was indeed for a nobler cause when compared to Anakin. I think the body count for Romulan casualties outweighs the Jedi casualties cause by Anakin's betrayal. Comparing Anakin to Sisko in this way I find interesting because in Ep III we see Anakin go from a brave knight to evil bastard. One decision and Anakin slides further and further down the silppery slope "Into Darkness". With Sisko we get the same line every other Captain, Admiral and even Section 31 members utter " it's for the Federation" . So I guess that makes it ok.
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Old April 28 2013, 09:42 AM   #32
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

Back to that whole lived-in realism thing…I don’t know if there’s ever been a show in the history of the tube with better special effects. I remember watching an episode of ABC’s V a couple years back and thinking that some force-field effect they had looked worse than what DS9 was doing 15 years before. And V was a network show, while DS9 was merely in syndication until 1995, at which point it went to UPN, hardly a guarantee of quality. Mostly, it’s because the Trek franchise’s TV production company, Paramount Television, had contracted Industrial Light & Magic to render its effects. Here’s a space battle from DS9’s 1998 season finale. I’ll be damned if it doesn’t look every bit as good today.
The high praise is warranted, of course. But where the author get the idea that ILM was involved(?).
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Old April 28 2013, 01:28 PM   #33
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

Umm... Deep Space Nine was never part of the UPN line-up. It was syndicated all seven seasons it aired.
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Old April 28 2013, 03:33 PM   #34
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

Well we're apparently comparing Sisko to Darth Vader now... so what's a small thing about changing what channel the show was on?
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Old April 28 2013, 05:13 PM   #35
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

Star Trek: Deep Space Nine was never a UPN show; it was syndicated all seven seasons. However, many of the stations which carried it were UPN-affiliated stations, such as WUAB in Cleveland. ILM did some early work on TNG, and built some of the early Enterprise-D models, but never worked for DSN.
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Old April 28 2013, 05:30 PM   #36
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

Harvey wrote: View Post
I think there is a fair argument that DS9 produced more influential writers than any other Trek series, as Sci suggests. I'm not sure it would hold -- but I think it could be made.
Wait, didn't most of the writers on DS9 start out as writers on TNG? They were just carried over when TNG went on and DS9 was in it's run. To say that DS9 produced more influential writers than any other trek series when those writers got their start on TNG is wrong.
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Old April 28 2013, 06:26 PM   #37
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
I think there is a fair argument that DS9 produced more influential writers than any other Trek series, as Sci suggests. I'm not sure it would hold -- but I think it could be made.
Wait, didn't most of the writers on DS9 start out as writers on TNG? They were just carried over when TNG went on and DS9 was in it's run. To say that DS9 produced more influential writers than any other trek series when those writers got their start on TNG is wrong.
No it's an opinion. One I happen to share at that. TNG had some great episodes. DS9 had a great story arc. While each of TNG stories may well stand equal with any DS9 story, DS9's stories collectively painted a picture that TNG's didn't. So DS9 seems to me as greater than the sum of it's parts. To say nothing of most people do this thing called... improving... after they do something long enough.
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Old April 28 2013, 07:50 PM   #38
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

tomalak301 wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
I think there is a fair argument that DS9 produced more influential writers than any other Trek series, as Sci suggests. I'm not sure it would hold -- but I think it could be made.
Wait, didn't most of the writers on DS9 start out as writers on TNG?
Some, not all. Ronald D. Moore and Ira Steven Bhr did work on TNG first -- Michael Taylor, Bryan Fuller, David Weddle, and Bradley Thompson did not. Others worked on TNG, but either only worked there once or twice as freelancers (Robert Hewitt Wolfe) or only worked there for a while and never achieved prominence at TNG before moving to DSN (Ira Steven Behr). And of course, quite a few of these guys had careers long before DSN OR TNG (Peter Allen Fields).

To say that DS9 produced more influential writers than any other trek series when those writers got their start on TNG is wrong.
No, it's a subjective opinion, and it's based on the assumption that these writers achieved industry prominence as a result of creative decisions they made at DSN rather than at TNG.
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Old April 29 2013, 03:03 AM   #39
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

I disagree with the sentiment expressed in the article.
To me, what made Trek great was that it was more than TV show: it was a vision.
It was idealistic, yes, but it wasn't pointlessly idealistic: it was giving us a grand dream of a bright future.
Just listen to Dr Michio Kaku talk about future tech or space and invariably reference Trek, listen to his enthusiasm.
That's what made TOS & TNG so great: they did extreme (especially TNG) idealism right; which is extremely rare in entertainment.
Comparatively, it seems to be easier to make quality "dark & edgy" works than idealistic ones.

DS9 seemed to be about undermining all of that. Yes, some episodes were very well made (The Visitor, In the Pale Moonlight, Way of the Warrior*, Inter Arma enim Silent Leges,...), but the near-constant undertones either undermining Trek's pre-established ethos or pushing religiosity, it seemed to be trying very hard to be the "anti-Trek" Trek series.
And in doing so, it became "just a show". Entertaining, but nothing more. Certainly not inspirational, unlike the prior series.

And let's not forget that, while DS9 wasn't the worst-written series overall (TNG>TOS>DS9>ENT>VOY, IMO), it gave us the worst Trek episode, by far: The Reckoning. The Reckoning makes VOY: Threshold look good by comparison.

*note: quite an underrated ep, that.
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Old April 29 2013, 06:13 AM   #40
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

Xhiandra wrote: View Post
I disagree with the sentiment expressed in the article.
To me, what made Trek great was that it was more than TV show: it was a vision.
It was idealistic, yes, but it wasn't pointlessly idealistic: it was giving us a grand dream of a bright future.
Just listen to Dr Michio Kaku talk about future tech or space and invariably reference Trek, listen to his enthusiasm.
That's what made TOS & TNG so great: they did extreme (especially TNG) idealism right; which is extremely rare in entertainment.
Comparatively, it seems to be easier to make quality "dark & edgy" works than idealistic ones.

DS9 seemed to be about undermining all of that. Yes, some episodes were very well made (The Visitor, In the Pale Moonlight, Way of the Warrior*, Inter Arma enim Silent Leges,...), but the near-constant undertones either undermining Trek's pre-established ethos or pushing religiosity, it seemed to be trying very hard to be the "anti-Trek" Trek series.
And in doing so, it became "just a show". Entertaining, but nothing more. Certainly not inspirational, unlike the prior series.
I don't agree at all. I think DSN was deconstructing the Trek paradigm, but that by doing so, it was also reaffirming it. I find DSN's firm insistence that a better world will be harder than we think but is still possible to be more inspirational than early TNG's flippant belief in its own characters' moral superiority.

And I think TOS was much more like DSN than TNG in its skepticism of flippant utopianism.
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Old April 29 2013, 06:33 AM   #41
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

Xhiandra wrote: View Post
And in doing so, it became "just a show". Entertaining, but nothing more. Certainly not inspirational, unlike the prior series.
It all depends on what you find inspirational, I guess.

I find the characters' journeys on DS9 to be the most inspirational writing in Trek. I like TNG and TOS a lot, but the way DS9 took what had been done on those shows and challenged it, struggled with it, rejected some of it... It's a lot healthier, really, as a way of looking at the world than some of what TNG had to say.

I do love TNG, and there are some inspiring episodes, no doubt. But on the whole, DS9 is the story I tend to go back to (speaking of the overall fabric of the show).

TOS is more of an acquired taste to me, as it was already decades-old before I watched any of it.
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Old April 29 2013, 09:02 AM   #42
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

flemm wrote: View Post
Xhiandra wrote: View Post
And in doing so, it became "just a show". Entertaining, but nothing more. Certainly not inspirational, unlike the prior series.
It all depends on what you find inspirational, I guess.

I find the characters' journeys on DS9 to be the most inspirational writing in Trek. I like TNG and TOS a lot, but the way DS9 took what had been done on those shows and challenged it, struggled with it, rejected some of it... It's a lot healthier, really, as a way of looking at the world than some of what TNG had to say.
So you admit that DS9 stands above the rest because their was a great conflict to define the characters, settings and Trek universe? If all it took was conflict to explore the human condition, we would have a million clone shows on television.

That's like saying everything TOS has to be 'Balance of Terror' 'A Taste of Armageddon' or 'Doomsday Machine' deep, dramatic and powerful.

For TNG all you have to do is ask every episode to be 'Chain Of Command', 'The Wounded' or 'Yesterday's Enterprise'.

Hell Enterprise did what DS9 did in it's 3rd season when they were trying to make it dark, violent and dramatic with the Xindi. It's not challenging to do. War and or large scale conflicts breeds development because the protagonists are constantly threatened. It give the heroes multiple chances to be brave.

As far as growing with the characters, sure the characters grew since the pilot but when you have 176 episodes what do you expect. If you analyze which characters actually grew and changed you'll find it's only Sisko, Kira, Odo, and Bashir. Dax changed when she became a new Dax, Quark was always Quark just the layers were peeled back, O'Brien was O'Brien, Worf regressed IMO.

What sets DS9 apart is the journey of the show. From Emissary to What You Leave Behind. Being stationary we saw the character's day to day and knew them intimately almost. That's what makes DS9 so strong. The needle was threaded well into a great story. A significant amount due to what JirinPanthosa said DS9 capitalizing on TOS and TNG foundations laid.
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Old April 29 2013, 02:24 PM   #43
flemm
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
So you admit that DS9 stands above the rest because their was a great conflict to define the characters, settings and Trek universe?
That's not what I said. But... sure, if you want to look at it that way: DS9 did more to challenge its characters, and the writers were challenging themselves a bit more than in other Trek of its era.

However, that's not the same as saying "conflict" as in "war." DS9 does have that, but even during the Dominion War that is not always the focus.

The show's best season is probably season 5, and the Dominion War starts only in the final episode of that season.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post

If all it took was conflict to explore the human condition, we would have a million clone shows on television.
Some kind of conflict is pretty essential. Of course, all the Trek series have conflict, it is more a question of "what kind?", "how deeply does it impact the characters?," etc.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
That's like saying everything TOS has to be 'Balance of Terror' 'A Taste of Armageddon' or 'Doomsday Machine' deep, dramatic and powerful.
It's not like saying that at all. Conflict can manifest itself in a variety of ways. DS9 was really best at character studies, not war stories. Or, at least, that has been argued before, and there is a lot of truth to it.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
What sets DS9 apart is the journey of the show.
Yes

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Old April 30 2013, 03:10 AM   #44
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

Xhiandra wrote: View Post
I disagree with the sentiment expressed in the article.
To me, what made Trek great was that it was more than TV show: it was a vision.
It was idealistic, yes, but it wasn't pointlessly idealistic: it was giving us a grand dream of a bright future.
Just listen to Dr Michio Kaku talk about future tech or space and invariably reference Trek, listen to his enthusiasm.
That's what made TOS & TNG so great: they did extreme (especially TNG) idealism right; which is extremely rare in entertainment.
Comparatively, it seems to be easier to make quality "dark & edgy" works than idealistic ones.

DS9 seemed to be about undermining all of that. Yes, some episodes were very well made (The Visitor, In the Pale Moonlight, Way of the Warrior*, Inter Arma enim Silent Leges,...), but the near-constant undertones either undermining Trek's pre-established ethos or pushing religiosity, it seemed to be trying very hard to be the "anti-Trek" Trek series.
And in doing so, it became "just a show". Entertaining, but nothing more. Certainly not inspirational, unlike the prior series.

And let's not forget that, while DS9 wasn't the worst-written series overall (TNG>TOS>DS9>ENT>VOY, IMO), it gave us the worst Trek episode, by far: The Reckoning. The Reckoning makes VOY: Threshold look good by comparison.

*note: quite an underrated ep, that.
The thing is, TOS and TNG both relied on alien cultures from all over the universe that were anything but idealized to create conflict and show contrast. What DS9 did was reveal what it's like for our idealized humans to live with these non-idealized aliens throughout the series. While the Enterprise was able to warp away each week, DS9 stayed put. Cardassians, Bajorans, Klingons, Romulans, all were created on TNG/TOS. On DS9 their problems could not be always resolved at the end of each episode. They showed us what it was like to live day to day deep inside the imperfect (yes imperfect) universe envisioned on the previous Trek shows. And one of those imperfect races closeby happened to be deeply spiritual. Yes, Star Trek has shown that humanity is not the only species which has religious people among them. But DS9 faces it and does not warp away from it. That's not "pushing religiosity" (unless you're a theophobe I suppose) -- it's facing and respecting other cultures. Very "Trek" if you ask me. So I'm sorry, but DS9 is not "just a show."
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Old April 30 2013, 04:45 AM   #45
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

^
Romulans did nothing more on DS9 than they did on TNG, TOS or ENT.

Klingons were stupid gorillamen and drunks mostly. Even Kor who was serious and militant became a trope. Gowron who had intellect and courage in TNG became a spoiled and incompetent character for the sake of conflict on DS9 leading up to the Dominion War, and died a trope.

Cardassians were little more than epic trolls to the DS9 crew prior to the Dominion War. Always finding some way to fuck with our heroes every other week as if they didn't have a government to run.

The Bajorans preachy religiousness was pushed to much and to far in the viewers face. They were annoying, bratty and thought the universe revolved around them. TOS, and TNG showed us the universe is full of different species every week. DS9 camped down and we actually got to learn about one. I personally couldnt care less about the Bajorans.

Also it was Gene's rule since TOS that conflict show come from outside the ship. Sure every series has it's tiff's but never do we see a crew engage in open hostilities like mortal adversaries. These are trained professionals doing a job in deep space, on stations and ships. Not sports teams with competing records and ego of each player. All one has to do is look up Harlan Ellison and his controversy with Gene over "The City On The Edge Of Forever", and immature it is to insert faux drama in between the crews of ship. Not saying you can't write drama but don't be lazy about it. You'll find yourself taking the easy road out like VOY did with the Maqui.
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