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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old April 27 2013, 09:42 PM   #1
Dale Sams
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So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

1) I only *this second* realized the double-meaning of 'chains of command'. I'm not too bright in word association unless I apply myself. S**t, I thought Borg was just a cool name for about 10 years.

2) (referring to Picard not having the rights of a POW) "Then he will be treated like a terrorist." More prescience on the part of TNG. I wonder if a Trek series would have the rocks to make that or "The Drumhead" these days.

3) The big one. So I was willing to give the benefit of the doubt to you 'Jellico apologists'. (I make it sound so bad don't I?) In fact my own memory said that Will more or less deserved being relieved. But having just watched it....Jellico was just looking for an excuse. Some people just can't get along and Jellico used Will's outburst as an excuse to dump him for the much more preferable Data.*

Also, was Jellico really expecting the entirety of Engineering to work a 48 hour shift? I guess stims have come a long way.

*All IMHO. I don't hate Jellico at all, and as others have said, he's refreshing.
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Old April 27 2013, 10:18 PM   #2
Captain McBain
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I don't hate Jellico, either, but he could've been a tad more 'human.' I wonder if he acted that way all the time or only specifically during critical missions. I also think that Jellico would've loved a shipful of Datas!
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Old April 27 2013, 10:37 PM   #3
Pondwater
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I don't think he was meant to be a Captain (even if it was temporary) of the Federation Flagship. Riker had it spot on when he told Jellico off.

Although, I think differently if it were a combat situation.
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Old April 27 2013, 11:02 PM   #4
Dale Sams
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Pondwater wrote: View Post
I don't think he was meant to be a Captain (even if it was temporary) of the Federation Flagship. Riker had it spot on when he told Jellico off.

Although, I think differently if it were a combat situation.
Hell, I *want* Jellico to be right in that conversation because it's the more interesting choice, but Riker is 'more' right.
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Old April 27 2013, 11:07 PM   #5
Opus
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Jellico was a dick.

But, he was a dick who was also in command of the Enterprise.

Jellico was right, and Riker was not. Yes, Riker dressed him down off the record quite well. But he was still wrong for not following orders and implementing Jellico's directives.
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Old April 27 2013, 11:41 PM   #6
R. Star
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I posted this on another thread, but this one's relevant so I'll put it here too:

I always thought Jellico wasn't that bad of a guy. Every time he was introduced to someone in that episode he was cordial to them for example. His command style definitely was "his way or the highway" and he was a micro manager. That's not bad, it's just different. Especially when everyone's been serving under Picard who basically gives his people all the leeway in the world so long as the job gets done.

Jellico to me seemed to put the mission before the people. Which is a very military attitude. To him they were facing the prospect of war if things went wrong. Jellico said as much to Picard and Troi. It wasn't that he didn't care about the people under his command, but he couldn't baby them at the expense of the mission. To Riker, Jellico was willing to sacrifice Picard to further the mission. He wasn't wrong. To Jellico, Picard is a small thing compared to the prospect of preventing a war, which was his mission.

Riker was insubordinate to Jellico and was increasingly so as things progressed. Jellico felt that was a danger to the mission having someone he couldn't rely upon in a critical position. So yes, when Riker crossed the line, he's relieved and Data's in the red shirt. Frankly Riker wasn't very professional in the episode at all. To me the scene between Geordi and Jellico in the shuttle was very telling. Not only did it demonstrate Jellico did attempt to bond with his people when given the chance, but that he'll put the mission ahead of personal concerns.

He did drop his pride when he asked Riker to pilot the mission. Why? His pride is a small thing to the success of the mission. I think he "dropped the ranks" and ripped into Riker, just to give Riker the chance to get all the nasty things he wanted to say to Jellico off his chest, so he'd perform the mission all the better. To say nothing about once the mission was a success and Jellico had the upper hand, he immediately demanded Picard's return. So you really can't say he didn't care about the people under his command, even if he didn't have time to pamper them so to say.

I suppose I ranted a bit on this, but he is one of my favorite characters and really did shake things up nicely on the TNG set. To me, Jellico was the professional, get the mission done, no matter the cost type of man. Just the sort of person you'd want on a high stakes mission where the threat of war is imminent. His style was different, and admittedly overbearing, but that doesn't mean it was wrong.
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Old April 28 2013, 12:57 AM   #7
Admiral James Kirk
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

R. Star wrote: View Post
I posted this on another thread, but this one's relevant so I'll put it here too:

I always thought Jellico wasn't that bad of a guy. Every time he was introduced to someone in that episode he was cordial to them for example. His command style definitely was "his way or the highway" and he was a micro manager. That's not bad, it's just different. Especially when everyone's been serving under Picard who basically gives his people all the leeway in the world so long as the job gets done.

Jellico to me seemed to put the mission before the people. Which is a very military attitude. To him they were facing the prospect of war if things went wrong. Jellico said as much to Picard and Troi. It wasn't that he didn't care about the people under his command, but he couldn't baby them at the expense of the mission. To Riker, Jellico was willing to sacrifice Picard to further the mission. He wasn't wrong. To Jellico, Picard is a small thing compared to the prospect of preventing a war, which was his mission.

Riker was insubordinate to Jellico and was increasingly so as things progressed. Jellico felt that was a danger to the mission having someone he couldn't rely upon in a critical position. So yes, when Riker crossed the line, he's relieved and Data's in the red shirt. Frankly Riker wasn't very professional in the episode at all. To me the scene between Geordi and Jellico in the shuttle was very telling. Not only did it demonstrate Jellico did attempt to bond with his people when given the chance, but that he'll put the mission ahead of personal concerns.

He did drop his pride when he asked Riker to pilot the mission. Why? His pride is a small thing to the success of the mission. I think he "dropped the ranks" and ripped into Riker, just to give Riker the chance to get all the nasty things he wanted to say to Jellico off his chest, so he'd perform the mission all the better. To say nothing about once the mission was a success and Jellico had the upper hand, he immediately demanded Picard's return. So you really can't say he didn't care about the people under his command, even if he didn't have time to pamper them so to say.

I suppose I ranted a bit on this, but he is one of my favorite characters and really did shake things up nicely on the TNG set. To me, Jellico was the professional, get the mission done, no matter the cost type of man. Just the sort of person you'd want on a high stakes mission where the threat of war is imminent. His style was different, and admittedly overbearing, but that doesn't mean it was wrong.
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Old April 28 2013, 04:22 AM   #8
Dale Sams
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

My position is, basically, when you've confused your empath and she's walking on eggshells around you...you've done something wrong. Riker is dead right that he's got the entire crew wound up. They probably started faking reports and running around like the crew of the Caine when the Captain saw someone with his shirt untucked.

You know the next person to go would have been Crusher...

"You want to explain to me why the entirety of Engineering is in here asking for stims?"

"Doctor, you're relieved."

"You going to make Data Chief Medical Officer in addition to XO? Good luck with that."
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Old April 28 2013, 04:26 AM   #9
R. Star
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
My position is, basically, when you've confused your empath and she's walking on eggshells around you...you've done something wrong. Riker is dead right that he's got the entire crew wound up. They probably started faking reports and running around like the crew of the Caine when the Captain saw someone with his shirt untucked.

You know the next person to go would have been Crusher...

"You want to explain to me why the entirety of Engineering is in here asking for stims?"

"Doctor, you're relieved."

"You going to make Data Chief Medical Officer in addition to XO? Good luck with that."


Crusher's replacement.
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Old April 28 2013, 04:27 AM   #10
Dale Sams
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

R. Star wrote: View Post
Dale Sams wrote: View Post
My position is, basically, when you've confused your empath and she's walking on eggshells around you...you've done something wrong. Riker is dead right that he's got the entire crew wound up. They probably started faking reports and running around like the crew of the Caine when the Captain saw someone with his shirt untucked.

You know the next person to go would have been Crusher...

"You want to explain to me why the entirety of Engineering is in here asking for stims?"

"Doctor, you're relieved."

"You going to make Data Chief Medical Officer in addition to XO? Good luck with that."


Crusher's replacement.

We need a bowing "I'm not worthy" emoticon.

edit: Also, am I the only one who cringes every time a female massages a Ferengi's lobes to get her way? Great plan Picard. If it were a Klingon, would Crusher have to give him a hand job under the table?

Last edited by Dale Sams; April 28 2013 at 05:04 AM.
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Old April 28 2013, 05:07 AM   #11
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

The thing is , first I loved Jellico, and in situations like the Federation, over time Jellico would have been able to reassign crew members to get the type of crew that fit his command style.

Picard was able to pick his primary officers, and after that those department heads would have say in getting or getting rid of people that worked with them.

You certainly don't want to be on board a ship that Captain and department heads are working against each other.
Riker's was right about that. But here the thing, he doesn't have to. Unless he is violating rules, his crew is supposed to follow his ways, even if they don't personally agree with them.
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Old April 28 2013, 05:10 AM   #12
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

I felt that Jellico was sort of a control freak who wanted to be surrounded by yes men validating his decisions. He didn't seem receptive to suggestions after having made up his mind how to proceed. It may have just been due to the urgency of this particular mission, else it's doubtful he could have gotten to where he was in Starfleet.
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Old April 28 2013, 05:24 AM   #13
Dale Sams
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

That whole, "I don't have time to hold people's hands." And "Now I know why he never got his own command"* when he actually just can't read your mind and you've got him afraid to talk to you. It just reeks of Captain Queeg's inability to take blame for anything.

*"He's been decorated by Starfleet five times" Hint hint. Helped save the Alpha Quadrant twice? Might have heard of that? Hello?

This is one of the few times I blame the writers. I know what they wanted to do. It would have just taken a little tweaking here and there. I definitely would have taken out Riker's smug, "You're welcome."

And also, Riker has "Heard Jellico has been talking to shuttle pilots all over the ship?" Did ya hear you might be going to war??? Galloway and Bailey both requested to return to duty...but you're going to sit in your room until the Captain begs you for help? Jerk.
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Old April 28 2013, 05:26 AM   #14
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Jellico = A non-alcoholic Col Tigh?

To me Jellico seemed like a man commanding a military vessel. Big mistake, in Star Trek.
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Old April 28 2013, 06:11 AM   #15
R. Star
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Re: So I'm Watching "Chains of Command"

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
That whole, "I don't have time to hold people's hands." And "Now I know why he never got his own command"* when he actually just can't read your mind and you've got him afraid to talk to you. It just reeks of Captain Queeg's inability to take blame for anything.

*"He's been decorated by Starfleet five times" Hint hint. Helped save the Alpha Quadrant twice? Might have heard of that? Hello?

This is one of the few times I blame the writers. I know what they wanted to do. It would have just taken a little tweaking here and there. I definitely would have taken out Riker's smug, "You're welcome."

And also, Riker has "Heard Jellico has been talking to shuttle pilots all over the ship?" Did ya hear you might be going to war??? Galloway and Bailey both requested to return to duty...but you're going to sit in your room until the Captain begs you for help? Jerk.
Well Riker's always been a jerk and hostile to anyone outside the command clique, unless he's hitting on them, pretty much. Remmick, Ro, Lavelle, Barclay and so forth. Jellico's only the latest on that list, but Riker can't pull rank on him.

Even so, they really made Riker childish and unprofessional in this episode. He's more worried about his private pissing contest with Jellico than preventing war? Again, that's why I think Jellico dropped the ranks and tore into Riker before he asked him to pilot the mission. Riker wasn't going to be functional on any level until he got what he needed to off his chest.

I personally think the writers did do him a disservice on this episode, but it's so awesome elsewhere it's easy to forgive that. The primary purpose of a first officer is to carry out and enact the captain's orders. I think you made a good point about Riker volunteering... that would've made up for his childish behavior earlier to be certain.

Jellico was more military like than Picard to be certain. Considering the scenario, it makes sense Necheyev would want someone like that commanding. Whatever you want to say about his command style, he did out maneuver the Cardassians almost single handed and did accomplish the mission. Considering Necheyev's own command style, she probably likes having a man like Jellico in the field.
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