RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,573
Posts: 5,423,477
Members: 24,810
Currently online: 405
Newest member: toaster

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12

New Wizkids Attack Wing Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Coto Drama Sold To Fox
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Braga Inks Deal
By: T'Bonz on Sep 12

Remastered Original Series Re-release
By: T'Bonz on Sep 11

UK Trek Ships Calendar Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Sep 10


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.33%
A 161 21.61%
A- 100 13.42%
B+ 82 11.01%
B 58 7.79%
B- 27 3.62%
C+ 40 5.37%
C 38 5.10%
C- 25 3.36%
D+ 11 1.48%
D 13 1.74%
D- 10 1.34%
F 36 4.83%
Voters: 745. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 27 2013, 03:09 PM   #586
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Franklin wrote: View Post
Since the topic is wavering, anyway (WHERE ARE THOSE SPOILERS, PEOPLE?!), there were some great stories in all Trek series, but exactly what were the episodes of TOS (or TNG) that actually "made one think" or were cerebral? The ones that transcended even a great episode of any other weekly drama or action-adventure show?

I've watched TOS until I can quote lines of dialogue by heart. Friends and I dissected episodes of TNG and later DS9 every Monday morning over coffee all through grad school (we were an exciting lot). I gave VOY a chance but left the ship after two years, and I was aboard the NX-1 a while too, before making my excuses and leaving. As far as any episodes coming back to me that truly met the high standards the mythology sets, I got nothing.

I'm not trying to provoke an argument or set people up to flame their tastes, but honestly, what were the episodes that were not just good strories, but were cerebral and thought provoking? What's the list?
Exactly so.
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 03:33 PM   #587
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Franklin wrote: View Post

I'm not trying to provoke an argument or set people up to flame their tastes, but honestly, what were the episodes that were not just good strories, but were cerebral and thought provoking? What's the list?
Maybe not cerebral, but I found both Code of Honor and Angel One thought-provoking. But the thoughts that they provoked can't be shared on a board where children may be reading.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 03:38 PM   #588
marksound
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Planet Carcazed
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

It always cracks me up that some of the most ardent fans have latched onto the one word in the English language that almost kept Star Trek off the air in the first place.

Come on, chant with me: "Cereeeebraaaal, cereeeebraaaal, cereeeebraaaal ... "

Now, back to the spoilers.
marksound is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 03:40 PM   #589
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
what were the episodes that were not just good stories, but were cerebral and thought provoking? What's the list?
That kinda infers there's no message to debate in the JJ films. To me, the 2009 film challenges us to ponder nurture vs nature (with Kirk), and this theme is certainly revisited in STiD. A Kirk who grows up without the influence of a strong father figure, and then how he starts to change under the mentorship of Pike. (Starts to change.)

Similarly, we have a Spock who has not spent 18 years not talking to his father, and taps into a different aspect of his half human, half Vulcan makeup, presumably rejecting the Vulcan girl he was bonded with in favour of an Earth woman.

McCoy of both timelines suffered a painful divorce. It'll be interesting to see if he faces new challenges in the next film.

There is plenty to discuss; it's not all 'splosions at all. I guess studying the differences in the two timelines is similar to the message of "Mirror, Mirror", and perhaps "The Enemy Within". Do changed circumstances change our personalities, our opportunities, our fates? How do we balance the facets of our personality, those little devils and angels sitting on our shoulders, influencing how we react in situations?
First, I'm thrilled to hear you had a good ride during the movie, Therin, it actually makes me confident a lot of us are going to like it.

Second, I agree that good Trek episodes did address interesting themes from time to time, to be sure. It was an action-adventure show that assumed it had an intelligent, thinking audience. That was part of its staying power. The thing is, all good stories have a theme (that's the only thing I remember from a short stories course I took in college).

I found the following column very descriptive of Trek as a franchise. The movie reviewer for The Washington Post, Ann Hornaday, recently wrote about why "middlebrow" doesn't have to be bad. She was writing in the context of what makes a movie likeable. She contrasted middlebrow to highbrow and lowbrow.

The parts that I think best apply to Trek as a franchise are the following quotes:

Where highbrow films seek to unsettle audiences and lowbrow films seek to anesthetize them, middlebrow films seek to comfort and stimulate viewers simultaneously. They may not always be feel-good, but they never go to gratuitous lengths to make us feel bad. Frank Capra was the consummate middlebrow director; we have Steven Spielberg, who has pursued the middlebrow via media with remarkably consistent results: For every starchy "Amistad" or saccharine "War Horse", we’ve gotten a superbly crafted "Jaws" or "E.T" or "Saving Private Ryan".
A good middlebrow movie is simple but never simplistic. It’s accessible but never patronizing. It’s high-gloss but never just eye candy. It’s relatable but never banal. It’s straightforward but never on-the-nose. It’s audience-friendly, but it never begs to be liked. By these criteria, "The Blind Side", with its matter-of-fact lack of melodrama, was a good middlebrow movie, while "The Help", with its glib, caricatured view of racism and its discontents, was not. "Lincoln", rich in production values but un-pretentious in its storytelling, was all that a middlebrow movie should be. The maudlin, meretricious "Forrest Gump" embodies everything that gives middlebrow a bad name.
Trek is exactly this. Accessible and intelligent without pretense. Themes are interesting without being too overwhelming or provocative. Trek is middlebrow. And that's just fine.

Here's the link to Hornaday's entire column:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...ion-two-movies
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 03:42 PM   #590
Flake
Commodore
 
Location: Manchester, UK
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

TMP is the most cerebral imo and was abandoned in favour of what we have now possibly because it did not actually resemble TOS! Specifically the action/adventure !
Flake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 04:03 PM   #591
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Even terrible Trek episodes can make you think. "Threshold" (VOY), "Plato's Stepchildren" (TOS), "Shades of Grey" (TNG), "Move Along Home" (DS9)...
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 05:15 PM   #592
Admiral Buzzkill
Fleet Admiral
 
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Yeah, they can make you think "Why do I still watch this?"
Admiral Buzzkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 06:58 PM   #593
flemm
Fleet Captain
 
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Franklin wrote: View Post
I'm not trying to provoke an argument or set people up to flame their tastes, but honestly, what were the episodes that were not just good strories, but were cerebral and thought provoking? What's the list?

I think there's probably more to say on the topic than simply reducing it to "good stories" versus "some type of cerebral, thought-provoking thing that obviously never existed."

Star Trek can tell a variety of different types of stories in what basically amounts to a fun, pulp sci-fi format. I think it's a little unusual among the big pop culture franchises in that it doesn't rely as heavily on a "hero/villain, good guy/bad guy" approach.

It does have that, of course, but a lot of Trek stories draw pretty heavily on other types of structures, such as: exploring the unknown, heroes vs. environment, heroes versus their own demons, heroes' ideals versus some internal or external threat, etc.

I think, a lot of the time, when fans talk about Trek's "cerebral" or "thought-provoking" side, part of what they mean is something like: I enjoy these other types of stories, partly because I can engage with them intellectually a bit more, while still having a good time.

It's not so simple as: "entertainment" versus "something more serious, which Star Trek has never been." Entertainment varies a lot in terms of quality, and not just on a technical level. Often it *is* more fun when entertainment can be engaged with intellectually, at least to a degree.

I'd rather watch The Avengers than Transformers 3, and one reason is: The Avengers is a huge blockbuster that is written and filmed in such a way that I don't have to turn my brain off to enjoy it. It's not insulting my intelligence and assaulting my brain at every turn. There is a difference, but it's not "entertainment" versus "serious philosophical business."

I've enjoyed Trek over the years because it has generally been entertainment I can enjoy for a few different reasons, and one of them is: often, I can leave my brain on. It's possible for entertainment to be entertaining and also play around with some interesting ideas. A lot of the best entertainment actually does, in one way or another.

Anyway, looking forward to this movie whatever it may be
flemm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 07:19 PM   #594
M'Sharak
Definitely Herbert. Maybe.
 
M'Sharak's Avatar
 
Location: Terra Inlandia
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Xavier_Storma wrote: View Post
This is so funny...

Back in 2009, when STAR TREK premiered I perdiced THIS story exactly for the sequel (Khan being captured like the Joker, terrorising the Federation; Kirk or Spock dying etc.). Everybody was telling me to shut up, how genius JJ Abrams was and that the next film would be nothing like that.
<snip>
It may just have been a busy time, but I'm afraid I don't remember that. Was this something you said in this forum?

aeriolewinters wrote: View Post
I am giving an example from what I am reading. I am not implying that Star Trek is a religion; although, at times, it borders on being a cult. ("...a group that devotes itself to or venerates a person, ideal, fad, etc...." (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cult))

Who lies between the people and the artists in the movie making industry? The corporations. Who gives their approval to fund a movie? The corporations, or the people? Who regulates the content of a movie? The corporations, or the people? The people are the last to see the film. Corporations put their money into projects that they hope will succeed.
You want a tinfoil hat with that? You know what? If you're so concerned about this corporation thing: Why don't you disconnect from the Internet. These 'corporations' control most of the routers that supply bandwidth. So yeah, if you're really serious about this; better disconnect, and be a hermit.
aeriolewinters wrote: View Post
I see him as a corporate pretty boy.
At least his co-actors in this film don't have a bitter relationship with him, unlike that other Kirk.


Seriously, people like throwback should be put in the Nexus, where everyday they watch their beloved Episodes and movies, and time doesn't move forward.
(emphasis mine)

Let's try to keep it on addressing the ideas or opinions being expressed (even if you think those may be a bit out there) and not take any unnecessary pokes at the person expressing them. Within reason, everyone should be allowed room to say what they think about a given topic.
__________________
"Recently my 8 year-old cousin asked me, with a wicked twinkle in his eye, if I'd ever microwaved a banana. I'm terrified to try, but I'm sure whatever happens—splattering, abrupt, radioactive—sounds exactly like an Annie Clark guitar solo."
M'Sharak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 07:22 PM   #595
Franklin
Rear Admiral
 
Location: In the bleachers
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

flemm wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
I'm not trying to provoke an argument or set people up to flame their tastes, but honestly, what were the episodes that were not just good strories, but were cerebral and thought provoking? What's the list?

I think there's probably more to say on the topic than simply reducing it to "good stories" versus "some type of cerebral, thought-provoking thing that obviously never existed."

Star Trek can tell a variety of different types of stories in what basically amounts to a fun, pulp sci-fi format. I think it's a little unusual among the big pop culture franchises in that it doesn't rely as heavily on a "hero/villain, good guy/bad guy" approach.

It does have that, of course, but a lot of Trek stories draw pretty heavily on other types of structures, such as: exploring the unknown, heroes vs. environment, heroes versus their own demons, heroes' ideals versus some internal or external threat, etc.

I think, a lot of the time, when fans talk about Trek's "cerebral" or "thought-provoking" side, part of what they mean is something like: I enjoy these other types of stories, partly because I can engage with them intellectually a bit more, while still having a good time.

It's not so simple as: "entertainment" versus "something more serious, which Star Trek has never been." Entertainment varies a lot in terms of quality, and not just on a technical level. Often it *is* more fun when entertainment can be engaged with intellectually, at least to a degree.

I'd rather watch The Avengers than Transformers 3, and one reason is: The Avengers is a huge blockbuster that is written and filmed in such a way that I don't have to turn my brain off to enjoy it. It's not insulting my intelligence and assaulting my brain at every turn. There is a difference, but it's not "entertainment" versus "serious philosophical business."

I've enjoyed Trek over the years because it has generally been entertainment I can enjoy for a few different reasons, and one of them is: often, I can leave my brain on. It's possible for entertainment to be entertaining and also play around with some interesting ideas. A lot of the best entertainment actually does, in one way or another.

Anyway, looking forward to this movie whatever it may be
Agreed. Trek doesn't make you check your brain at the door, that alone separates it from a lot of blockbusters. I just don't know why the need is often felt to elevate it to pretentious heights that it was never intended to reach, or worse, hold it to that standard as if it were supposed to reach for it.

Trek is like a good Beatles song you can enjoy for decades, and not like a mindless bubble gum pop song that you listen to a lot for a few weeks, forget in six months, then wonder why you even liked it when you hear it years later. But that distinction doesn't make Trek on par with Beethoven any more than the Beatles are. And of course, just like Trek wants to put out a product that makes money, the Beatles and Beethoven were trying to make music that would sell, too.
__________________
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. -- Mark Twain

Last edited by Franklin; April 27 2013 at 07:33 PM.
Franklin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 07:32 PM   #596
flemm
Fleet Captain
 
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Franklin wrote: View Post
Agreed. Trek doesn't make you check your brain at the door, that alone separates it from a lot of blockbusters. I just don't know why the need is often felt to elevate it to pretentious heights that it was never intended to reach, or worse, hold it to that standard as if it were supposed to reach for it.
Fans tend to go overboard, and discussions on the internet tend to get polarized very quickly. Probably some combination of those things.

It's true that a lot of Trek has been made in the television format, where the aims and requirements are different, and it's easier for Trek to be about one thing this week, and something else the next.

For now, we seem to be getting an attempt at "blockbuster Trek." So, that means an emphasis on action and excitement. Nothing wrong with that.
flemm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 07:40 PM   #597
Ryan8bit
Commodore
 
Ryan8bit's Avatar
 
Location: St. Paul, MN
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

flemm wrote: View Post
Fans tend to go overboard, and discussions on the internet tend to get polarized very quickly. Probably some combination of those things.
This is exactly the way I see it. People start saying things like 'cerebral' to describe things that are simply a matter of preference that may be more subconscious, and go to great lengths to rationalize it. I've even seen a guy who did so with the movie Nemesis, and he actually did a decent job of it. The movie is still rubbish though.
Ryan8bit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 07:54 PM   #598
flemm
Fleet Captain
 
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
This is exactly the way I see it. People start saying things like 'cerebral' to describe things that are simply a matter of preference that may be more subconscious, and go to great lengths to rationalize it.
No doubt. Having said that, I think that every franchise like this, that appeals to people over long periods of time, must have certain characteristics, or represent some type of fantasy fulfillment, that people connect with.

With Trek, I think it's partly the cerebral side that draws people in. I mean, Spock and Data are among the most beloved characters in the franchise, right?

So... I dunno. Rejecting the idea that being a bit "cerebral" at times is part of what Trek is about, or part of its appeal, strikes me as a little silly. I think that's obviously part of its appeal.
flemm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 08:40 PM   #599
Flake
Commodore
 
Location: Manchester, UK
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Well I just listened to the Empire podcast because they talked about Star Trek Into Darkness (spoiler free). They said in summary:

Yes it is very good! Yes there are lens flares! Stunning in IMAX. Some of the 3D is distracting because it is a 2D conversion. Not JJs ESB (if that means anything?!) Not perfect. Feels 'trekkier' than the first one, they say it is more of traditional Star Trek film than the first one. It gets 'twisted by its own logic'. Benedict Cumberbatch is 'absolutely amazing' and 'steals the film' but his plan is 'like Skyfall and doesn't make a lot of sense'. Zoe Saldana gets a lot of the humorous parts/lines. Star Wars in a safe pair of hands. Star Trek fans will like Into Darkness because of all the nods to the original series/movies. Dreadnought is a phenomenal ship. Cumberbatch dominates every scene he is in. 4 out of 5. Very good indeed.
Flake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 27 2013, 08:51 PM   #600
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

flemm wrote: View Post

With Trek, I think it's partly the cerebral side that draws people in. I mean, Spock and Data are among the most beloved characters in the franchise, right?
Is it that they're "cerebral" or that their outsiders?
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
benedict cumberbatch, grading & discussion, jj abrams

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:28 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.