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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 26 2013, 10:02 PM   #211
MacLeod
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

I never said they had to tell the Federation the truth, but if they did ask the Federation permission to traverse their space, and didn't convince starfleet as to the reason why, I would have sent a ship to investigate the region myself. The Son'a where after all suspected to be supplying Ketracel White to the Dominion.

For all the Federation knew is that the resources to create white could be found on this planet. It would have been prudent for starfleet to survey the region.
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Old April 26 2013, 11:19 PM   #212
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
I do think that during wartime, Kirk would have been fully justified in taking the dilithium by force if it might have meant the difference between victory and defeat,
Yeah, see I think Kirk wouldn't do that seeing as he isn't a Klingon. That was kind of the freaking point of showing the differences between the two universes in that episode.

See I can figure this because while he wasn't too happy about the Organians not fighting the Klingons he didn't just shove a phaser in their hands and force them to fight the Klingons. He also didn't just beam down to the planet a declare the Federation's intention to build a base there he negotiated with the locals.

which is the situation the UFP was presented with in INS.
No it really wasn't.

You can keep denying that the situation was not an issue of a valuable resource during a time of war, but it's not the case.
It is the case because your precious particles had f@#k all to do with ending the war or any affect on the war for that matter.

Seriously in all of the episodes of DS9 during the Dominion War just when exactly has anything that needed those magic particles come up.

Hell during the freaking movie they only mentioned living longer as an effect they never mentioned any military benefits, and we don't even know if the war was still going on at that point.
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Old April 26 2013, 11:21 PM   #213
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

MacLeod wrote: View Post
I never said they had to tell the Federation the truth, but if they did ask the Federation permission to traverse their space, and didn't convince starfleet as to the reason why, I would have sent a ship to investigate the region myself. The Son'a where after all suspected to be supplying Ketracel White to the Dominion.

For all the Federation knew is that the resources to create white could be found on this planet. It would have been prudent for starfleet to survey the region.

er, I guess I don't understand your point. So the Federation finds out what they're doing.


OK, so what? It still either comes down to a PD issue or it's Federation territory. Either way, how does it affect things if the Federation investigates?
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Old April 26 2013, 11:25 PM   #214
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Yeah, see I think Kirk wouldn't do that seeing as he isn't a Klingon. That was kind of the freaking point of showing the differences between the two universes in that episode.

See I can figure this because while he wasn't too happy about the Organians not fighting the Klingons he didn't just shove a phaser in their hands and force them to fight the Klingons. He also didn't just beam down to the planet a declare the Federation's intention to build a base there he negotiated with the locals.

No it really wasn't.

You can keep denying that the situation was not an issue of a valuable resource during a time of war, but it's not the case.
It is the case because your precious particles had f@#k all to do with ending the war or any affect on the war for that matter.

Seriously in all of the episodes of DS9 during the Dominion War just when exactly has anything that needed those magic particles come up.

Hell during the freaking movie they only mentioned living longer as an effect they never mentioned any military benefits, and we don't even know if the war was still going on at that point.

actually, Ru'afo mentions it to Dougherty, talking about how every major power has been challenging the Federation, implying a strategic advantage through the particles. And of course DS9 didn't bring up the particles, PICARD TURNED THE SON'A INTO AN ENEMY! Plus, it was a different show, so why would DS9 bring up the TNG movie franchise?


at any rate, it still doesn't matter. The Baku lose either way.
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Old April 26 2013, 11:52 PM   #215
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

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Is it Kirk's duty to defend them at that point?
Probably not but he would do it anyway because it's James T. Kirk were talking about he does the right thing not the politically convenient thing.

Is it realistic to expect the Federation to devote resources to protecting a planet that will grant them nothing in return?

Depends if its the Klingons yeah they kind of will because they don't want the Klingons to have the crystals either.

Not to mention if the planet is being attacked they're not going to let themselves get blown up or shot so I would expect them to defend themselves.
IIRC, the Kodos situation involved the planet being hit by a famine and there not being enough food to keep everyone alive. Kodos hence opted to eliminate X% of the population so that there would be enough food for everyone else. Hardly an approach that anyone will commend him for, but I don't see any good options here.
How about not committing mass murder thats a good option.


sonak wrote: View Post
actually, Ru'afo mentions it to Dougherty, talking about how every major power has been challenging the Federation, implying a strategic advantage through the particles.
So immortality obsessed man child is the entire reason for that argument. yeah lets go with that guy instead of onscreen evidence that the particles don't really amount to much in the grad scheme of things.
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Old April 27 2013, 12:13 AM   #216
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
I never said they had to tell the Federation the truth, but if they did ask the Federation permission to traverse their space, and didn't convince starfleet as to the reason why, I would have sent a ship to investigate the region myself. The Son'a where after all suspected to be supplying Ketracel White to the Dominion.

For all the Federation knew is that the resources to create white could be found on this planet. It would have been prudent for starfleet to survey the region.

er, I guess I don't understand your point. So the Federation finds out what they're doing.


OK, so what? It still either comes down to a PD issue or it's Federation territory. Either way, how does it affect things if the Federation investigates?
So the Son'a don't ask for the Federation for permission to traverse their space and enter Federation space, Starfleet would no doubt send a ship to intercept the Son'a vessel to ask what they are doing. So now not only are they suspected of supplying your enemy during a time of war, they are invading your space. Whilst the Federation might not be as territorial in defending it's borders as say the Romulan's. In a time of war your are going to be more aware/circumspect about border incursions.
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Old April 27 2013, 12:17 AM   #217
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

DOUGHERTY With metaphasics, lifespans will be doubled... an entire new medical science will evolve... (beat) I understand your Chief Engineer has the use of his eyes for the first time in his life... would you take his sight away from him?
Putting aside the doubled lifespans, if just normal exposure can magically heal Geordi's eyes the concentrated stuff's potential would be extraordinary. When you probably have hundreds of hospitals across dozens of planets and bases full of casualties from the war, that seems like a pertinent need.
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Old April 27 2013, 12:31 AM   #218
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

R. Star wrote: View Post
DOUGHERTY With metaphasics, lifespans will be doubled... an entire new medical science will evolve... (beat) I understand your Chief Engineer has the use of his eyes for the first time in his life... would you take his sight away from him?
Putting aside the doubled lifespans, if just normal exposure can magically heal Geordi's eyes the concentrated stuff's potential would be extraordinary. When you probably have hundreds of hospitals across dozens of planets and bases full of casualties from the war, that seems like a pertinent need.
Considering its doubled lifespans instead of immortality it actually sounds like a a watered down version of the radiation is the end result and seeing as the all natural immortality granting version can't heal wounds the watered down sounding version that will only double a lifespan probably wouldn't either.

Besides most casualties in the war suffered from the untreatabl;e condition known as death in all its varied forms like death from being blow up when the ships is destroyed, or death from exploding console and/or (surprisingly) rock filled walls, or death by vaporization, or death by whatever the hell those automatic energy weapons the Jem'Hadar use are, or ect.

So not seeing how it helps and no most of the battles shown were space battles so that probably wasn't the minority of combat.
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Old April 27 2013, 12:45 AM   #219
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Leaving aside the absurd notion that most casualties in space battles = death, most of the battles shown, doesn't mean most of the battles that happened. When the Jem'Hadar are attacking and occupying entire worlds like Betazed, that's where most of your casualties are going to come from. So a series of AR-558, the Ship and Nor the Battle to the Strong scenarios. And casualties in those battles did not instantly equal death.

Normal, prolonged exposure heals your wounds and makes you immortal. The whole point of the collector was to collect the radiation particles for concentrated use. So I'm inclined to think they'd be more effective than the natural stuff and the only reason people wouldn't be immortal is because they aren't permanently exposed to the stuff.
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Old April 27 2013, 02:28 AM   #220
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

R. Star wrote: View Post
Leaving aside the absurd notion that most casualties in space battles = death,
They do when the most comon thing shown is ships exploding.

most of the battles shown, doesn't mean most of the battles that happened. When the Jem'Hadar are attacking and occupying entire worlds like Betazed, that's where most of your casualties are going to come from.
Except I don't recall that many planetary invasions mentioned during DS9.

So a series of AR-558,
Most of the people there died quickly

the Ship
Not part of the war.

and Nor the Battle to the Strong scenarios.
Not only not part of the war, but not even against the Dominion

And casualties in those battles did not instantly equal death.
Um, in the only one of those that was actually during the Dominion War they did kind of instantly die when shot except for Nog.

Normal, prolonged exposure heals your wounds
It does not or else Anij wouldn,t have been dying after the fricken cave in.

So I'm inclined to think they'd be more effective than the natural stuff
Considering healing the injuried was never mentioned and would go against what was shown on screen I tend to disagree.
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Old April 27 2013, 03:04 AM   #221
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Is it Kirk's duty to defend them at that point?
Probably not but he would do it anyway because it's James T. Kirk were talking about he does the right thing not the politically convenient thing.

Is it realistic to expect the Federation to devote resources to protecting a planet that will grant them nothing in return?

IIRC, the Kodos situation involved the planet being hit by a famine and there not being enough food to keep everyone alive. Kodos hence opted to eliminate X% of the population so that there would be enough food for everyone else. Hardly an approach that anyone will commend him for, but I don't see any good options here.
How about not committing mass murder thats a good option.


sonak wrote: View Post
actually, Ru'afo mentions it to Dougherty, talking about how every major power has been challenging the Federation, implying a strategic advantage through the particles.
So immortality obsessed man child is the entire reason for that argument. yeah lets go with that guy instead of onscreen evidence that the particles don't really amount to much in the grad scheme of things.

All your arguments are basically circular- Kirk would do it because it's the "right thing to do." Ru'afo has to be wrong because the film has declared that he's supposed to be the bad guy.

Sorry, I don't find those persuasive. Permanently defending a tiny village of pacifists who are such hypocrites that they'll let others fight for them but won't do it themselves, and didn't tell anyone else about a revolutionary discovery because it would have spoiled their private little Eden is not "the right thing to do." It would also be blatantly picking sides in a dispute where the Son'a have equal claim to the planet, so in addition to being strategically foolish during a time of war, it's a violation of the PD as well.

You're asking the Federation to violate its own laws and sabotage its own war effort to help a small village that contributes nothing to the Federation.
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Old April 27 2013, 03:38 AM   #222
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla... obviously we don't see eye to eye. You're nitpicking minutiae and your arguments seem based more on your opinions than fact. There were tons of ground battles during DS9. Martok and Damar mentioned 500,000 Cardassian casualties in a single conflict on Septimus 3 for example. Just because it doesn't happen on screen doesn't mean there's not a bigger picture outside the main ship of the show.

As for the Ship and Nor the Battle to the Strong... they're examples of ground fighting and the types of casualties seen. If you don't think they're relevant then you're intentionally narrowing your viewpoint I should say. Munez took freaking DAYS to die after getting shot by the Jem'Hadar for example in the Ship. Even in ship to ship fighting, which you seem to think equals instant death, there are things called damaged ships with injured people... the type that send out distress calls regularly in Trek... to say nothing of escape escape pods with injured people. Heck in the final battle alone, the Defiant wasn't even hit that bad and O'brien suffered an injury.

As for Anij dying in the cave? They're on a planet surrounded by a low levels of the radiation. Her injuries sustained were killing her more quickly than she'd be healed. Like if you're bleeding from a deep wound, a band-aid and some ointment isn't going to do much to stop it even if they're helpful in normal circumstances. You need more.

Healing the injured never mentioned? What the heck do you call Geordi's eyes freaking regenerating themselves? They even said it would revolutionize medicine as they knew it. So if you think that "goes against" what's on screen, I'd submit you need to watch the movie again.
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Old April 27 2013, 04:23 AM   #223
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

R. Star wrote: View Post
Hartzilla... obviously we don't see eye to eye. You're nitpicking minutiae and your arguments seem based more on your opinions than fact.
Says the guy making stuff up that was never said in the film.

As for the Ship and Nor the Battle to the Strong... they're examples of ground fighting and the types of casualties seen.
But they're not really good examples of the type of war the federation is fighting.

What they are fighting is a war of attrition with an enemy with limitless troops and ships. The particles are not going to affect that in any sizable way.

Hell the fact that the federation won without the particles pretty much shows how little effect there loss or prescience had on the war.

As for Anij dying in the cave? They're on a planet surrounded by a low levels of the radiation. Her injuries sustained were killing her more quickly than she'd be healed. Like if you're bleeding from a deep wound, a band-aid and some ointment isn't going to do much to stop it even if they're helpful in normal circumstances. You need more.
Where in the film was that ever mentioned.

What the heck do you call Geordi's eyes freaking regenerating themselves?
Wow regeneration an optic nerve, thats so impressive

Just like when Pulaski seemed to think she could do the same thing with existing federation medical technology.

They even said it would revolutionize medicine as they knew it.
That doesn't exactly equate to a military advantage though does it. And it's pretty vague seeing as they never went into specifics outside of healing optic nerves and extending lifespans, so I find it dubious that this statement is enough to prove all the claims you made about these wonder particles.

sonak wrote: View Post
All your arguments are basically circular- Kirk would do it because it's the "right thing to do." Ru'afo has to be wrong because the film has declared that he's supposed to be the bad guy.
And all of yours are based on misremembering factoids about the federation said and shown in the the various series, a lack of understanding of actual terms with definitions, and an over estimation of just how valuable the particles are seeing they did not in fact mean the difference between victory and defeat in the Dominion War and that's if this film even takes place during that war.
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Old April 27 2013, 05:02 AM   #224
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
I'm right and you're wrong. The details don't matter. If you don't believe it just ask me.
Fixed it for you.
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Old April 27 2013, 11:40 AM   #225
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Leaving aside the absurd notion that most casualties in space battles = death,
They do when the most comon thing shown is ships exploding.


This is from Generations, this man (the one in the air) just had a console explode in front of him, powerful enough to throw him fifteen/twenty feet. Assuming he isn't already dead, he is going to have burns and sever internal injuries. Space battles don't alway solely result in death.



This is from Sacrifice of Angels. There are two badly damaged Starfleet vessels in this shot, one has it's entire bow section missing. Both likely have many injured along with their dead. Space battles don't alway solely result in death.

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