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Old April 21 2013, 06:30 PM   #31
R. Star
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Re: Terra Prime

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Good points, the Terra Prime folks have been a minority as they would have been able to influence politics otherwise.

I think Samuels is basically the character that R. Star wants. Sure, the time frame (Samuels already learned his lessons when the story beings) doesn't match but it is again a question of atmosphere and not of stupid literal reading. Samuels' biography mirrors the story of the species. There are some demons from our past who sometimes reemerge (think about the fictional historical WWII/eugenics background that influences this episode, Khan, TNG's pilot, Bashir and so on; sometimes the historical toilet comes up) but for the time being we defeat them.
So... first you insult, then you just plainly put words in my mouth? Did you not even read my first post? Or do you just cherry pick what you read? First sentence of my initial post I said it was one of the better stories in season 4. Just because it is, doesn't mean it's perfect or is free from criticism of some obvious flaws. There is middle ground between good and terrible believe it or not. But when your argument is to insult a point of view that's different from yours then just put words in their mouth when they don't say things you like... well how serious can one take you?

Samuels? We don't know a lot about him admittedly. We have only his word that he reformed. His actions are he was part of Terra Prime, then tried to stop them to the point he had no problem killing Archer and company to do it. Viewpoints can change, but with politics there are always ulterior motives so it's hard to take things at face value. I'd be willing to say if Paxton won, Samuels would suddenly "see the light" in Terra Prime again. Politicians so often position themselves to land on their feet no matter the political landscape.

To the protesters. Sure it could be a vocal minority. It could be the majority. We don't know, it was never addressed and no sort of resolution was reached on it. That's my main nitpick with the episode. They bring it up, simply to lend weight to the threat of the bad guy, that he's threatening the whole founding of the Federation, then don't bother to explain it or resolve it because it proves inconvenient to the apparent desire for a happy ending. It's like if Archer shot lightning bolts out of his hands to beat Paxton. He never did this before, no explanation is given for it, and he never does it again. It'd be silly. This is the same way.
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Old April 21 2013, 06:52 PM   #32
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Re: Terra Prime

Ehm, I said I think that Samuels is the character you might be looking for, somebody through whom the end of Terra Prime is symbolized. That's not putting words in your mouth, it is just a guess. And I obviously have to guess as you never say concretely how you want the end of Terra Prime to be dramatically shown. For me as well as most other folks the death of the villain plus Samuels conversion is really enough to symbolize that "the demons of our past are conquered (for now)".

I would never insult you but the activity you engage in, hyperliteral reading and plot hole buggery, is obviously pretty stupid. Not seeing the forest because of the trees and so on. You could take the greatest stories of the world and find dozens of plot holes. It is just a pointless activity and the wrong approach to any kind of fiction.
Because, to repeat myself, fiction means making stuff up. This automatically involves leaving things out. Even if you are Tolkien and devote a big part of your life to create an entire fictional world it will be full of "plot holes".

Anyway, back to the actual story. Would you mind to point out HOW you want the end of Terra Prime to be symbolized? In my eyes we have the death of the villain, Samuels conversion plus Archer's speech that symbolize it in the actual episode.
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Old April 21 2013, 07:07 PM   #33
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Re: Terra Prime

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Ehm, I said I think that Samuels is the character you might be looking for, somebody through whom the end of Terra Prime is symbolized. That's not putting words in your mouth, it is just a guess. And I obviously have to guess as you never say concretely how you want the end of Terra Prime to be dramatically shown. For me as well as most other folks the death of the villain plus Samuels conversion is really enough to symbolize that "the demons of our past are conquered (for now)".

I would never insult you but the activity you engage in, hyperliteral reading and plot hole buggery, is obviously pretty stupid. Not seeing the forest because of the trees and so on. You could take the greatest stories of the world and find dozens of plot holes. It is just a pointless activity and the wrong approach to any kind of fiction.
Because, to repeat myself, fiction means making stuff up. This automatically involves leaving things out. Even if you are Tolkien and devote a big part of your life to create an entire fictional world it will be full of "plot holes".

Anyway, back to the actual story. Would you mind to point out HOW you want the end of Terra Prime to be symbolized? In my eyes we have the death of the villain, Samuels conversion plus Archer's speech that symbolize it in the actual episode.
I would never insult you but... (proceeds to insult).. heh. Do you not see the hypocrisy in that one? Or just don't care? Or do you just think that your opinion(yes, opinion) is so above everyone else's that anyone who has the audacity to disagree or form one that you don't share is so obviously flawed they warrant insulting? To say nothing of you claiming to speak for "most other folks."

But now that you're speaking for everyone now, putting words in my mouth is a small thing. But I was referring to you saying I hated the episode. Just because you are critical of something doesn't automatically equate to hate. If your friend tells you that your outfit looks bad, that doesn't mean they hate you for example.

So... terms like "hyperliteral reading" and "plothole buggery" I think we can equate that to... "I'm going to put demeaning labels on anyone who voices an opinion I don't agree with. And they are wrong. Just ask me if you don't believe me! Everyone else thinks I'm right!"

To what I would've preferred? That's simple. An actual resolution beyond Archer giving a 30 second speech and all the problems going away magically. But that would require more than two episodes. Sure, they beat the bad guy. They did nothing to address the circumstances that created the situation. It would've been awesome if they had Terra Prime pop up early in season 4 after the Xindi incident and it was a recurring theme all season. Then we could've gotten a more complete picture of the situation beyond "they all lived happily ever after."
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Old April 21 2013, 07:21 PM   #34
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Re: Terra Prime

R. Star wrote: View Post
To what I would've preferred? That's simple. An actual resolution beyond Archer giving a 30 second speech and all the problems going away magically. But that would require more than two episodes. Sure, they beat the bad guy. They did nothing to address the circumstances that created the situation. It would've been awesome if they had Terra Prime pop up early in season 4 after the Xindi incident and it was a recurring theme all season. Then we could've gotten a more complete picture of the situation beyond "they all lived happily ever after."
First, you already noted that this is impossible to do in a two-part episode and would have required more screen time.
Second, actual resolution is still fairly abstract. Would you mind to be more concrete?

In my opinion the question are, a) do you show anonymous people or actual characters, b) how can you symbolize via a limited amount of people that the opinion of a minority of Earth (and it is pretty clear that Terra Prime represents a minority as they would otherwise be able to influence politics via normal ways) has changed in a better fashion than via the conversion of Samuels and the death of Paton, c) how do you make sure that this new subplot works well in sync with the rest of the story? Think about the Terra Prime operative aboard the Enterprise and the Starfleet security in disguise as reporter, they were "embedded" and could interact with our main character. Same with Terra Prime, they became part of the plot insofar as they interacted with some of our main characters.



By the way, just because I like the story very much doesn't mean I don't have some minor problems with it. But they are not caused by plot holes but by atmosphere and mot with the resolution though but with the way Terra Prime is portrayed.
I am not normally not prone to political correctness but it seems a bit weird that amidst Paxton's minions there were only black guys. And didn't their xenophobia appear to be a bit of a distorted class conflict?
The guys on the moon are workers and it was the most direct portrayal of labour except for the slave labour on Rura Penthe. Isn't this stuff done by machines in the 22nd century, aren't there better jobs? Their boss owns everything, (not even in TOS it was ever stated that miners work for basically one guy) the worst form of human wealth inequality during TOS (in the case of Mudd it was clear that he is the bad guy) and instead of hating him they hate aliens. It's basically fascist, antisemitic logic, a class conflict is distorted into a "blame the outsider and once he is thrown out a harmonious, orgnaic society will emerge" story.
In addition to that their leader doesn't really hate aliens, he profits from them via their medical knowledge. He isn't stupid so does he really believe the eugenic propaganda of Colonel Green?

I don't wanna exaggerate but I got some vibes along these lines. Definitely felt a bit weird that Terra Prime was thrown together with this most clear form of manual labour and 'one guys owns everything' ... without the subtext of the story saying anything about this.
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Last edited by horatio83; April 21 2013 at 07:39 PM.
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Old April 26 2013, 01:45 AM   #35
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Re: Terra Prime

I wonder if the admiral in Star Trek Into Darkness is a descendant of Paxton...?
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Old April 26 2013, 10:10 AM   #36
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Re: Terra Prime

Which Admiral?


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Old April 26 2013, 11:19 AM   #37
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Re: Terra Prime

It's a spoiler question.
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Old April 26 2013, 09:05 PM   #38
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Re: Terra Prime

NO SPOILERS.

That includes oblique references that will lead to spoilers if followed up on. Being cute about spoilers is not cute.

Spoiler tags, people. I AM NOT KIDDING.

Thank you for your cooperation.
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Old April 26 2013, 11:56 PM   #39
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Re: Terra Prime

Thank you HopefulRomantic! Feel free to berate and threaten for the next couple weeks on this matter!!
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Old April 27 2013, 12:14 AM   #40
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Re: Terra Prime

Some people seem to have a need to be like the old show Happy Days' Ralph Malph (Don Most, who was in VOY's "Workforce"). When the Cunninghams were going to see an old classic movie at the cinema, Ralph blurts out the endings to Citizen Kane and King Kong.
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Old April 27 2013, 12:16 AM   #41
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Re: Terra Prime

Well tis only 12 days till ITD comes out.
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Old April 27 2013, 12:20 AM   #42
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Re: Terra Prime

Not everyone will see it opening day... I'd hope people would be courteous with the spoilers for at least a month after release date... though that's pretty much a forlorn hope.
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Old April 28 2013, 06:29 AM   #43
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Re: Terra Prime

teacake wrote: View Post
Thank you HopefulRomantic! Feel free to berate and threaten for the next couple weeks on this matter!!
Thank you for your support. I surely will.

R. Star wrote: View Post
Not everyone will see it opening day... I'd hope people would be courteous with the spoilers for at least a month after release date... though that's pretty much a forlorn hope.
Six months is the typical respecting-spoilers period. Yes, it's time to dig that will power out of the trash can or the closet or wherever you ditched it, and use it here in our fair non-Trek-movie forum.

At LEAST until the movie comes out on BluRay/DVD. When leaves are turning color and falling. Months of self-control! It'll be good for you, and your efforts will be appreciated.
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Old April 28 2013, 06:35 AM   #44
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Re: Terra Prime

Heck, when I saw BoBW on Thursday, that was the first time I stepped into a movie theater in a couple years. I may well not get around to seeing Into Darkness until it comes out on DVD. Movie Theaters, or more precisely the inconsiderate people in them, annoy me to no end.
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Old April 28 2013, 06:51 AM   #45
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Re: Terra Prime

^^ Our home theater system sounds way better than a movie house. Plus the popcorn costs a lot less, lol. We often wait until BluRay to see a film. (Although I don't think I can wait that long for a Star Trek movie.) So I face this spoiler dilemma a lot. It's difficult to remain clueless about some monster billion-dollar-making movie everyone is talking about. But we try.
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