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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
A+ 144 19.38%
A 161 21.67%
A- 100 13.46%
B+ 82 11.04%
B 58 7.81%
B- 27 3.63%
C+ 40 5.38%
C 38 5.11%
C- 24 3.23%
D+ 11 1.48%
D 13 1.75%
D- 10 1.35%
F 35 4.71%
Voters: 743. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 26 2013, 10:06 PM   #511
Xaios
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

GMDreia wrote: View Post
Hm. Maybe this film will give us a better sense of why the Federation banned genetic engineering. I never really got that sense from Space Seed and WOK. The augments were stronger and hardier, sure, but they didn't REALLY seem that dangerous... they seemed like humans with Klingon or Vulcan constitution. I'm loving the idea of augments being much more genuinely scary.
It's all in the subtext. The reason for banning eugenics doesn't really need to be spelled out in Space Seed or TWOK. The evidence of what it does to people is right in front of us: Khan. Besides, those really weren't meant to be a treatise on WHY genetic engineering on that scale can be bad. It relies on the audience to be able to connect the dots, and largely succeeds. The backstory is all in service of giving Kirk a worthy adversary.

It's different in the DS9 episodes involving Bashir and the other genetically modified humans, as those stories really did set out to explain "why this is bad."

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It does represent something that modern movies (and modern storytelling) tend to do that really ends up being a disservice to the story: the constant compulsion to explain every minute detail about WHY the setting is the way it is. It's never enough to simply know "it is" anymore and let that fact guide the story.
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Old April 26 2013, 10:09 PM   #512
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Does the reuse of Khan bother mostly fans? Odd, because reusing the Joker and giving him different looks never seemed to bother Batman fans or general audiences.

TWOK is thirty years old. "Space Seed" aired in 1967. This movie is aimed at general movie goers who are mostly younger than the age of TWOK, and whose parents may be younger or only a few years older than "Space Seed".

What's more, most in that demographic probably never saw TWOK or especially "Space Seed", and have no idea who Ricardo Montalban was, let alone that he was a Mexican playing an Indian. So what would their hang up with Cumberbatch as Khan be?

For those fans with a hang up, I'd think the star power of Cumberbatch right now will more than compensate for those for whom the movie is now ruined.
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Old April 26 2013, 10:10 PM   #513
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Ovation wrote: View Post
DarthTom wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
I overlook all sorts of shortcomings that I would not overlook in other films outside Bond and Trek.
Please tell me however that you didn't like On Her Majesty's Secret Service where George Lazenby plays Bond and actually gets married in the film?

Worst Bond film in the history of the series and Lazenby was terrible as James Bond.

Trek like Bond had it's Lazenby moments. Nemesis and Final Frontier were IMO definately those moments.
Actually, that is my favourite Bond film, storywise and only the fact that Lazenby, rather than Connery, is Bond in that film prevents it from being my favourite Bond film period.
I think OHMSS with Lazenby is better than it might have been with Connery. Connery's Bond oozes misogyny—as does Connery in real life—and never manifests any sense of vulnerability. I doubt he could have sold the love story.

Franklin wrote: View Post
As I've said about the blood, personally, I think restorative blood is far more plausible (requires less suspension of disbelief) as a science fiction device than the old Trek standards of a transporter and warp drive. It's certainly easier to believe than red matter. But, different strokes for different folks. Pluralism is grand.
Bennett, Sowards and Meyer had planned for Khan to be psychic. They wrote a scene in which Khan and Kirk fight, with Khan using his psychic ability to make Kirk appear to have to fight in a variety of different environments.

Although I'll never know what the finished scene would have looked like, it sounds incredibly stupid. Fortunately, that scene never made it into the film for logistical reasons: due to scheduling conflicts Shatner and Montalban weren't available to shoot on the same day, and the scene would have burdened the limited budget, necessitating shortcuts elsewhere.

Abrams isn't nearly as limited in the means made available to him. If the powers behind TWOK had had the budget and studio support that Abrams has, they might have created an inferior film to the one we actually got. They weren't any smarter than STID when it comes to giving Khan implausible magic powers, just luckier.

(Another bit of trivia: when they adapted TWOK for the TNG cast, early drafts included this scene between Shinzon and Picard. After rewrites, it morphed into the telepathic rape of Troi.)
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Old April 26 2013, 10:12 PM   #514
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I don't think I've ever seen him. So the actor is not a factor for me. From what I've heard, he's a very good actor. It's simple, we've been there and done that. Except this will have more FX.
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Old April 26 2013, 10:13 PM   #515
Xaios
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Franklin wrote: View Post
Does the reuse of Khan bother mostly fans? Odd, because reusing the Joker and giving him different looks never seemed to bother Batman fans or general audiences.
Oh man, people HOWLED their disgust when they were told Heath Ledger was going to play the Joker.

"What!? That guy from Brokeback Mountain?? WTF!!! And he's wearing face paint instead of being permanently discolored?! That's stupid! Chris Nolan is a traitor!!"

That's pretty much how it started.
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Old April 26 2013, 10:31 PM   #516
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Xaios wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
Does the reuse of Khan bother mostly fans? Odd, because reusing the Joker and giving him different looks never seemed to bother Batman fans or general audiences.
Oh man, people HOWLED their disgust when they were told Heath Ledger was going to play the Joker.

"What!? That guy from Brokeback Mountain?? WTF!!! And he's wearing face paint instead of being permanently discolored?! That's stupid! Chris Nolan is a traitor!!"

That's pretty much how it started.
I didn't know that. I got to join some Batman boards.

Of course, over $500 million later, who was howling in disgust, I wonder?

Fans are sometimes the biggest detriment to a franchise.

(By the way, I loved how Ledger played the Joker.)
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Old April 26 2013, 10:42 PM   #517
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

I'm sure Cumby will make a fine Khan. I really don't care what ethnicity the actor is. That's why they call it acting.

Only thing about Khan's blood being used as a cure-all is, why didn't Khan Prime ever think of it? But that's minor, in the grand scheme of things. Just chalk it up to something that Section 31 discovered and leave it at that. Would make it interesting to suggest that Khan's enhanced intellect really isn't perfect after all...
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Old April 26 2013, 10:45 PM   #518
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

GMDreia wrote: View Post
Now I am intrigued and excited and feel that the writers may be doing for this character what Nolan did with the Joker in "The Dark Knight" - a thorough deconstruction, and written as Khan would be written *now* (and it would also not be cool presently to show an Indian or Middle Eastern guy as a terrorist type; going with the original casting choices or a white guy may be safer... but in the end, NOBODY here is going to be pleased). Something that to me had always been scrimped on in TOS, was that we never before really saw that much of Khan's "superiority". Also, there were aspects of that characterization and that story that suffered from being "15 minutes in the future" so that now they're horribly dated. And people prefer more complex and nuanced villains now.

If you consider JJ's "Star Trek" to be adding to an existing body of work based upon a mythology rather than attempting to be a direct remake of TOS or the films, and consider this new body of work to be updating based upon current sensibilities, it makes sense.

Comics and the like have a long history of reinterpretations and multiverses - I kind of think of JJ-Trek as the Trek version of Marvel's "Ultimate" universe.

Plus, Khan was definitely out there and they may have needed to get him out of the way to move on and tell new stories.
I love this! Who knows in the end but I choose to look at it through the same lenses you do! Everyone here is stuck on Khan's backstory, in the Dark Knight they had no backstory on the Joker at all and it worked.
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Old April 26 2013, 10:49 PM   #519
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I'm sure Cumby will make a fine Khan. I really don't care what ethnicity the actor is. That's why they call it acting.

Only thing about Khan's blood being used as a cure-all is, why didn't Khan Prime ever think of it? But that's minor, in the grand scheme of things. Just chalk it up to something that Section 31 discovered and leave it at that. Would make it interesting to suggest that Khan's enhanced intellect really isn't perfect after all...
How do we know Khan prime didn't think about it. Perhaps he used it a lot? Perhaps he gave McGivers a full blood transfusion and it still didn't work. Having this blood contradicts nothing from Prime Trek because it was never mentioned and never needed.
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Old April 26 2013, 10:49 PM   #520
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I'm sure Cumby will make a fine Khan. I really don't care what ethnicity the actor is. That's why they call it acting.

Only thing about Khan's blood being used as a cure-all is, why didn't Khan Prime ever think of it? But that's minor, in the grand scheme of things. Just chalk it up to something that Section 31 discovered and leave it at that. Would make it interesting to suggest that Khan's enhanced intellect really isn't perfect after all...
I wondered about that, myself. Could be in this universe, Section 31 has been playing around with his genetics to study him and they've experimented on him, creating the "magic" blood. Khan, humbled to be the guinea pig as he's actually seething and plotting his vengeance. That will be my canon, at least.
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Old April 26 2013, 10:53 PM   #521
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Franklin wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
I'm sure Cumby will make a fine Khan. I really don't care what ethnicity the actor is. That's why they call it acting.

Only thing about Khan's blood being used as a cure-all is, why didn't Khan Prime ever think of it? But that's minor, in the grand scheme of things. Just chalk it up to something that Section 31 discovered and leave it at that. Would make it interesting to suggest that Khan's enhanced intellect really isn't perfect after all...
I wondered about that, myself. Could be in this universe, Section 31 has been playing around with his genetics to study him and they've experimented on him, creating the "magic" blood. Khan, humbled to be the guinea pig as he's actually seething and plotting his vengeance. That will be my canon, at least.
The blood reminds me of the magic Cylon/human blood which saved Roslin in nuBSG. At least for awhile.
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Old April 26 2013, 11:00 PM   #522
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

One other thing. Blood has to be matched for type (except for Type O). While it would be logical if Khan's magic blood "fit" everyone like Type O does, maybe it doesn't. It could be a happy coincidence that Khan and certain others have the same blood type. Maybe Marla (in the Prime Universe) didn't share Khan's blood type.
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Old April 26 2013, 11:05 PM   #523
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Like I said, maybe he gave Marla McGivers all his blood and it made no difference because it could not reverse the effects of the Ceti eel.
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Old April 26 2013, 11:06 PM   #524
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

Franklin wrote: View Post
One other thing. Blood has to be matched for type (except for Type O). While it would be logical if Khan's magic blood "fit" everyone like Type O does, maybe it doesn't. It could be a happy coincidence that Khan and certain others have the same blood type. Maybe Marla (in the Prime Universe) didn't share Khan's blood type.
What if it changes those who receive it? Be interesting if it had nanites which began augmenting the recipient. That or specialized viruses.
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Old April 26 2013, 11:09 PM   #525
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Re: STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS - Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS]

^ Oh God no. I hope Kirk doesn't start acting all Augmenty in the next film.
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