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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old April 26 2013, 06:04 PM   #76
Jefferies
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

I am somewhat sceptical about the trailer. It seems that all the good looking space FX are shots from episodes remastered by CBSD i.e. BOBW and Redemption. In the shots of the other episodes the use of shadow and lighting as well as the blending into the scenery are much less impressive. The Enterprise looks rather plastic and toy-like in the Modern Video scenes. Might not be as bad as HTV but it's still clearly not as good as CBSD. I truly hope this is a work in progress but at this late point I doubt it.
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Old April 26 2013, 06:09 PM   #77
jimbotron
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Jefferies wrote: View Post
The Enterprise looks rather plastic and toy-like in the Modern Video scenes. Might not be as bad as HTV but it's still clearly not as good as CBSD. I truly hope this is a work in progress but at this late point I doubt it.
That's not the remastering, that's the nature of the 4-footer. Season 4 gets away from much of the stock footage of the 6-footer. It inherently looks plastic and toy-like. That model only looks good from overhead, and when in darkness. Then it was not shot very well, because it was meant for SDTV. When the lighting is bright, the ship loses that sense of scale. The initial ILM work was feature quality, but later work by Image G was meant for TV, and wasn't meant to hold up in HD. No remastering in the world can fix all of that.

Last edited by jimbotron; April 26 2013 at 06:22 PM.
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Old April 26 2013, 06:20 PM   #78
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

jimbotron wrote: View Post
That's not the remastering, that's the nature of the 4-footer. It inherently looks plastic and toy-like. That model only looks good from overhead, and when in darkness. Then it was not shot very well, because it was meant for SDTV. When the lighting is bright, the ship looks terrible. The initial ILM work was feature quality, but later work by Image G was not. No remastering in the world can fix all of that.
I disagree, you can do a lot by sensible use of shadowing and lighting. CBSD shows this off very clearly in the 4-footer shots from Redemption. Outstanding stuff. In the Modern Video scenes on the other hand the Enterprise looks bland and overexposed. Space is dark. Somehow this is lost on everyone but CBSD.
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Old April 26 2013, 06:34 PM   #79
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

It all depends on the situation.

I'll take Redemption out of the equation since CBS-D worked on that.

00:00: Modern Video - the Enterprise looks properly lit
00:09: CBS-D
00:19: CBS-D
00:30: Modern Video - kinda ugly, but that's inherent to the footage, as FrontierTrek mentioned
01:23: CBS-D
01:40: Modern Video - looks great
01:47: Modern Video - kinda bright, but the lighting is darker and more realistic than the original: http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...theloss277.jpg
01:53: Modern Video - lighting is good, the shine is intentional
02:04: Modern Video - heavily backlit, but it's not overly bright
02:07: Modern Video - looks good

True, you can see what's CBS-D and what's MV, but the difference is negligible, IMO. Definitely not an HTV hackjob. We'll know for sure when we see their take on the ILM stock footage.
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Old April 26 2013, 07:05 PM   #80
SpHeRe31459
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Nice rundown of who did what in the trailer jimbotron

I think 1:47 looks true to the original, even in the original you see it kind of looks like the Enterprise stands out from the cosmic string, like you can clearly tell the Enterprise is at a different z-index than the string is.

But I do agree it seems CBS-D puts in 110% and puts some extra love into their scenes, instead of being 100% recreations of how it looked in SD.
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Old April 26 2013, 07:12 PM   #81
Jefferies
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

jimbotron wrote: View Post

00:00: Modern Video - the Enterprise looks properly lit
00:30: Modern Video - kinda ugly, but that's inherent to the footage, as FrontierTrek mentioned
01:40: Modern Video - looks great
01:47: Modern Video - kinda bright, but the lighting is darker and more realistic than the original: http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...theloss277.jpg
01:53: Modern Video - lighting is good, the shine is intentional
02:04: Modern Video - heavily backlit, but it's not overly bright
02:07: Modern Video - looks good
Out of those I only really like the shots at 1:40 and 2:04. All the other ones are far too hesitant in their use of true dark shadows the way CBSD uses them. Space is dark not grey and its this grey shadowing tone that makes the ship look flat and not properly blended with its surrounding.

Also the original lighting has not held CBSD back to massively improve shots with regard to shadowing. Those were the 80s they can do a lot better now.
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Old April 26 2013, 08:40 PM   #82
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

So, I hear people saying that CBS-D will handle the final "conform" for Season 4. What does that mean exactly? I'm not a restoration specialist so the terms thrown around leave me in the dark quite often.

Would the final conform mean that they do final tweaking to Modern Video's compositions? Tweaks to lighting, matte lines, etc...or is it something less involved than that?
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Old April 26 2013, 08:55 PM   #83
jimbotron
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

The conform is the literal reconstruction of the footage. It is cutting together the original film, and making sure the edits match the original SD masters down to the last frame.

CBS-D is also handling the color correction, I believe. Modern Video is only taking care of the visual effects and compositions.

I'm not sure who's taking care of the audio mix.
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Old April 26 2013, 08:58 PM   #84
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

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Old April 26 2013, 09:22 PM   #85
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Yeah the 6 footer just films a lot better in general I think. But based on what I've seen, they've done well on the 4 footer considering what they have to work with.
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Old April 26 2013, 10:37 PM   #86
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Does anyone know if the stock fly by shots of the Enterprise were supplied by CBS D for Season 4 or where they recomped again?

Very impressed by the few ship shots we saw in the trailer done by Modern Video.
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Old April 27 2013, 12:03 AM   #87
davejames
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Yeah I'm not seeing the problem at all. If there is a difference in quality, it's incredibly subtle.

Certainly not like HTV's work which stood out like a sore thumb, and where the quality and lighting fluctuated wildy within every episode.

Although as much as I like the 4-footer and some of the cool shots they got out of it, I do agree it doesn't hold up nearly as well in closeups. I was shocked at how ugly and obvious the registry decals were during the BOBW event.
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Old April 27 2013, 02:05 PM   #88
Syd
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Quick question about the archival mission logs for season 4 to season 7. Will CBS be including the region 2 dvd extra featurettes in the blu ray releases? For example, season 4 has two extra featurettes on my region 2 dvd boxset called "Select Historical Data" & "Inside the Star Trek Archives". Are these being included?
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Old April 27 2013, 02:35 PM   #89
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

I'm certain they will - Enterprise Season One included the Region 2 / Best Buy-exclusive content from the S1 DVDs.
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Old April 27 2013, 03:59 PM   #90
Flake
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Re: Season FOUR OFFICIAL TNG Blu-Ray Discussion Thread

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
Flake wrote: View Post
Upscale the original VFX elements and put them on HD Enterprise?

I think we need to get used to upscaled CGI if we are going to get Voyager and DS9 on Blu. We are already getting upscaled stuff on the Enterprise blu-rays.
Enterprise HD masters were made that way, they didn't change anything for the Blu-rays. TNG, DS9 and VOY need new masters, so they'll recreate anything that isn't HD, including digital effects.

Incidentally, some of the "Space Baby" and its mother was a physical model, some of it was CG. They'll have to rebuild the CG bits, but the model should hold up ok as is.
I really do not believe they will remake the CGI in 1080p on DS9 and Voyager.

It would be way too expensive to do it and make it way more expensive than TNG which is not a good idea when the spinoffs where not as popular as TNG. I think it would require another company remaking the effects shots in addition to two companies editing them together. Surely this is too expensive. Its not just re-rendering the CGI models (which would have to be remade from scratch!) they have to match the virtual camera movements and positions of ships etc. Imagine trying to remake the fleet scenes in the latter seasons of DS9 - it would cost a fortune! OTOH they can simply upscale. Enterprise already has 480p CGI upscaled and so will DS9 and VOY. Surely the VFX companies sent in their CGI effects in a higher bitrate ready to be edited into their SD broadcasts just incase they are upscaled in the future. Perhaps these reels exist separately to the finished episodes, especially if they were edited into existing live action footage.
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