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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old April 26 2013, 05:09 PM   #46
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

So, we build a 1 mile ship to counter a 5 mile ship. Why not build a ship of exactly that length, or maybe double the size, to counter this ship? That didn't work for the Imperial Navy, as one fighter took out the bridge and brought the ship crashing into the Death Star. Imagine that happening in Star Trek.

An enemy ship smashes into your bridge, and, considering, that you left the bridge far more vulnerable to attack, as you idiotically put in openings on either side of the bridge structure, there goes your expensive penis waving project.
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Old April 26 2013, 05:58 PM   #47
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

throwback wrote: View Post
So, we build a 1 mile ship to counter a 5 mile ship. Why not build a ship of exactly that length, or maybe double the size, to counter this ship?
How do you know they aren't building an even bigger ship? Maybe it's the next in line in the shipyards after trying and succeeding with the 1 mile variant.

That didn't work for the Imperial Navy, as one fighter took out the bridge and brought the ship crashing into the Death Star. Imagine that happening in Star Trek.
So what your proposal? Build just one type and size of spaceship for everything? Build as many small, maneuverable fighters as possible and when the next huge Narada/D7/D'deridex fleet comes we just keep throwing large disposable numbers at them, aiming for the bridge until we're the last ones standing?

Personally, I say a balanced fleet needs the small highly maneuverable fighters, the big ass Vengeance types and more classes in between those. Each one serves a different purpose and together they cover each others weaknesses.


An enemy ship smashes into your bridge, and, considering, that you left the bridge far more vulnerable to attack, as you idiotically put in openings on either side of the bridge structure, there goes your expensive penis waving project.
We should warn all those big ass real life aircraft carriers. Their bridges are totally exposed, sticking up into the air open to attack from all sides.
Lets warn those Klingon idiots too while we're at it. With their thin necks and exposed bridges open to attack from all sides. A warrior race they tell you. Hah...
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Old April 26 2013, 07:11 PM   #48
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

throwback wrote: View Post
So, we build a 1 mile ship to counter a 5 mile ship. Why not build a ship of exactly that length, or maybe double the size, to counter this ship? That didn't work for the Imperial Navy, as one fighter took out the bridge and brought the ship crashing into the Death Star. Imagine that happening in Star Trek.

An enemy ship smashes into your bridge, and, considering, that you left the bridge far more vulnerable to attack, as you idiotically put in openings on either side of the bridge structure, there goes your expensive penis waving project.
None of these designs seem all that smart from the military built-to-protect perspective. But if you want another way to take out the big saucer with the hole in the middle, take a page from one of the Shatner/Reeves-Stevens novels, where they have a DEFIANT-class Enterprise decloak INSIDE the open area on a TNG-era Warbird and just fire while rotating around inside that empty space between main hull and engines.
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Old April 26 2013, 07:14 PM   #49
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

One thing I feel certain about. If the Enterprise is destroyed in this movie, it will not be replaced by the new Dreadnaught/Vengeance. Up close, it's not as graceful of a design that the Enterprise traditionally has been.

*Though I'm sure the Vengeance does have a proper engineering.
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Old April 26 2013, 07:49 PM   #50
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

If you're right, then we can hope that will be salvaged from the VENGer and then utilized in the E's refit. Personally I'd be so much happier with the VENGer bridge instead of seeing Kirk & co in a TARGET Store's overlit white cosmetics aisle ...
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Old April 26 2013, 07:59 PM   #51
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

EJD1984 wrote: View Post
If the Enterprise is destroyed in this movie...
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Old April 27 2013, 03:15 AM   #52
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

EJD1984 wrote: View Post
One thing I feel certain about. If the Enterprise is destroyed in this movie, it will not be replaced by the new Dreadnaught/Vengeance. Up close, it's not as graceful of a design that the Enterprise traditionally has been.

*Though I'm sure the Vengeance does have a proper engineering.

One thing I do like about the Vengeance, Is its bridge. To me its more like the Kelvin and most other bridge types that we've seen, compared to the super happy, super bright Apple store bridge that has to be Mopped, polished, and dusted every hour.
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Old April 27 2013, 03:35 AM   #53
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

It's really pretty similar to the Enterprise's bridge except for being a darker color.
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Old April 27 2013, 07:27 AM   #54
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

Aircraft carriers are supported and protected by a carrier strike group.

The issue I have is with the size.

I know that Franz Joseph’s Dreadnought Class Starship was 320 meters long, which made it 32 meters longer than the Heavy Cruiser Class Starship.

I did a quick survey of battlecruisers, battleships, and heavy cruiser classes that served in World War II.

Since we are given a length measure, I looked at the overall length of the varying classes. The smallest class is the Mississippi-class Battleship, which was commissioned before WWI, and the Iowa-class Battleship, which was commissioned in WWII. The difference in size is 154 meters. The largest class is not three times the length of the smallest. It's more like 1 1/3 times longer. There were ship classes of varying sizes between these two classes, and there were decades of experience building, testing, and fielding these ships in battle.

For me, I would find it more realistic if Starfleet built a ship that was somewhat larger, but not so much larger, to dwarf the Enterprise. According to the known ship types, the Enterprise-type starships were the largest ships in the fleet. Starfleet had to field a ship in less than a year as war with the Klingons was looming. Hypothetically, I can imagine Starfleet, after the defeat of Narada, would take an existing frame under construction, perhaps an Enterprise-type starship or a starship of another type that was roughly equal or a little larger in length, and converting it into a larger warship. However, I don't see them being able to convert it into the behemoth we see in the movie.

I understand from doing my researches what they were attempting to do. In WWII, there was a type of battleship called the fast battleship. An example of this was the USS Iowa. These ships "...emphasized speed without - in concept - undue compromise of either armor or armament." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_battleship)

250 to 275 meters
270 meters Iowa-class Battleship (US)
262.1 meters Admiral-class Battlecruiser (UK)
251 meters Bismarck-class Battleship (Germany)
225 to 274 meters
246.43 meters Alaska-class Large Cruiser (US)
237.76 meters Littorio-class Battleship (Italy)
235 meters Scharnhorst-class Battleship (Germany)
228.7 meters Renown-class Battlecruiser (UK)
227.1 meters King George V-class Battleship (UK)
200 to 224 meters
222.190 meters North Carolina-class Battleship (US)
216.4 meters Nelson-class Battleship (UK)
215.8 meters Ise-class Battleship (Japan)
215.8 meters Nagato-class Battleship (Japan)
215.1 meters Dunkerque-class Battleship (France)
214.58 meters Kongō-class Battlecruiser (Japan)
210 meters South Dakota-class Battleship (US)
205.6 meters Baltimore-class Heavy Cruiser (US)
204 meters Myōkō-class Heavy Cruiser (Japan)
202.8 meters Admiral Hipper-class Heavy Cruiser (Germany)
202.7 meters Fusō-class Battleship (Japan)
201.6 meters Mogami-class Heavy Cruiser (Japan)
175 to 199 meters
196.9 meters Trento-class Heavy Cruiser (Italy)
196.82 meters Queen Elizabeth-class Battleship (UK)
194 meters Suffran-class Heavy Cruiser (France)
192.54 meters Takao-class Heavy Cruiser (Japan)
190.27 meters Colorado-class Battlecruiser (UK)
190 meters County-class Heavy Cruiser (UK)
190 meters New Mexico-class Battleship (US)
190 meters Revenge-class Battleship (UK)
190 meters Tennessee-class Battleship (US)
189.1 meters Tone-class Heavy Cruiser (Japan)
186 meters Portland-class Heavy Cruiser (US)
185.3 meters Pennsylvania-class Battleship (US)
184 meters Hawkins-class Heavy Cruiser (UK)
182.96 meters Northampton-class Heavy Cruiser (US)
182.8 meters Zara-class Heavy Cruiser (Italy)
181.2 meters Gangut-class Battleship (Russia)
179.27 meters New Orleans-class Heavy Cruiser (US)
178.5 meters Pensacola-class Heavy Cruiser (US)
177.7 meters Nevada-class Battleship (US)
176 meters Andrea Doria-class Battleship (Italy)
176 meters Conti di Cavour-class Battleship (Italy)
175 meters New York-class Battleship (US)
150 to 174 meters
171 meters Wyoming-class Battleship (US)
166 meters Bretagne-class Battleship (France)
166 meters Courbet-class Battleship (France)
164.6 meters York-class Battleship (UK)
159 meters Florida-class Battleship (US)
125 to 149 meters
127.6 meters Deutschland-class Battleship (Germany)
100 to 124 meters
116.4 meters Mississippi-class Battleship (US)
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Old April 27 2013, 12:11 PM   #55
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

Which has what to do with starships 300 years from now?
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Old April 27 2013, 01:22 PM   #56
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

I have read that if you are to imagine the future, look first to the past. The past can be instructive on the nature of humans.

In wars past, we have seen how nations have converted existing hull frames under construction into a new hull shape to meet new demands. We can see how humans created specialized products to meet new threats. For instance, the IJN Shinano was converted from a battlecruiser to an aircraft carrier. The decision to convert her hull came after the Battle of Midway, in which the Imperial Japanese Navy lost four of their carriers. By looking into the past, I can see where JJ Abrams and his people were going in the design of the Vengeance. They were attempting to depict a spaceborne Iowa-class battleship analogue - a fast battleship. Fast battleships were used for combat with other ships of its type, for escorting larger ships, and for bombarding islands. (Which, for me, raised the question, what other large starships was Starfleet building? And was Starfleet planning on taking out Klingon colonies on planets from orbit?)

As I haven't seen the film, and as I haven't seen data on this new ship, I don't know what weapons, beside what has been seen in the trailer, this Vengeance has. The description by Khan made notes to the ship's speed, length, and crew size.

The class nomenclature Dreadnought Class is not I believe the more specific nomenclature of this ship class, i.e. Federation-class starship. I think it is used to identify the type for which this ship is assigned. For this reason, I don't believe there is a ship named Dreadnought.
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Old April 27 2013, 01:36 PM   #57
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

You do realize that military "realism" and Trek have never been in the same galaxy, let alone neighbourhood, right?

In Trek, ships are always in function of the plot--they move at "speed of plot", they're built at "size of plot" and have all the "capabilities of plot" necessary to tell a particular story. Consistency in these matters has NEVER been especially notable.
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Old April 27 2013, 01:57 PM   #58
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

Yeah, but the lack of subtlety is what gets me with Vengeance. "It's big, scary looking and black because it's the villain's ship." Not even Imperial Star Destroyers were that obvious about their villainous nature.
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Old April 27 2013, 02:11 PM   #59
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

When is the last time Trek was "subtle"?
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Old April 27 2013, 02:12 PM   #60
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Re: SPOILER - Other Starship Revealed

Fine, but when was the last time, prior to Abrams taking over that Trek was that blatantly obvious? Aside from the Borg, are there even any black ships in all of Trek?
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