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Old April 26 2013, 04:26 AM   #526
Guy Gardener
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The Borg is a gestalt mind of trillions the Federation allows to persist with the rights of a civilization.

Seven is a gestalt mind of thousands the Federation allows to persist with the rights of an individual.

Tuvix is a gestalt mind of two Janeway insisted on murdering because he has the same rights as a sack of potatoes.
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Old April 26 2013, 04:48 AM   #527
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
There was no window.

Tuvix could have made a deal.

"One more month, and then I'll gladly let you murder me."

Remember in the Jaime lee Curtis/Lindsay Lohan Freaky Friday when they tried to switch back into their original bodies by running at each other REALLY fast like angry foot ball players into a violent collision?

That may not have rebuilt Tuvix with the regular Tuvok and Neelix, but what about the Quicksilver Neelix and Tuvok?

...

The problem with my description of a benevolent (Peace Corps) Borg is that that was the TNG Borg. The Borg on Voyager were just a bunch of thug assholes mostly, which is why they kept picking on Voyager. However since they always knew where Voyager was, when ever Janeway said that she had reversed course and hid from the Borg (Which she said they did a lot in Dark Frontier) is hilarious because Voyager was never actually really hiding effectively or at all fro the Borg all the times she thought they were hiding.... Ever played hide and seek with a 3 year old?

Long range transwarp scans from one Cube can map everything in the galaxy and keep track of everything in the galaxy since then can bisect the bastard in a matter of weeks... Just Like Voyager at puny warp speed can scan and chart what's happening a couple weeks in either direction of where it's standing with it's regular subspace scanners because if it couldn't that rickety barge should have been a lot more indecisive.

You know when you want to change the TV channel, but you'd have to stand up, and walk three feet to get the remote, so you say fuck it and just watch whatever the hells on, THAT is why the Borg did not assimilate Voyager.
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Like I said, the Borg are always a threat. The Collective's entire existence is driven by the threat to assimilate others. It cannot, by definition, be permitted to exist. That's the difference.
They don't assimilate everything, only those of interest to them. Lions are always a threat, too, we don't exterminate them. That is not the point, though. Why are the Borg intrinsically less deserving of survival than Tuvix? Why is separating Seven from the Borg Collective OK, but getting Neelix and Tuvok out of theirs not OK?
This thread has been around for a while. Could someone summarize how we got from the moral dilemma of Tuvix to comparing him to the borg? Somebody just give me the highlights?
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The Borg is a gestalt mind of trillions the Federation allows to persist with the rights of a civilization.

Seven is a gestalt mind of thousands the Federation allows to persist with the rights of an individual.

Tuvix is a gestalt mind of two Janeway insisted on murdering because he has the same rights as a sack of potatoes.
Janeway vs the Borg, in particular Dark Frontier. I wish they'd run with the implication that the Queen suggested in Seven having been allowed to stay with Voyager. It would have played well into Chakotay's Scorpion metaphor had Seven been aware she was a plant. The dramatic possibilities as Seven comes to appreciate her individuality, as well as Voyager carrying the Federation's destruction with them is fantastic. I don't agree with Hartzilla2007's thinking. Those reasons are, of course, ample for why the Borg should be resisted, but it doesn't address why their existence is something to be eradicated by default as was done with Tuvix. Kes wanted Neelix saved from the Tuvix Collective and Janeway did so, just as she took Seven from hers. The needs of the many, Tuvok and Neelix, were greater. A Collective of two or trillions, Janeway is just not one for collectives that she's not queen of.
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Old April 26 2013, 07:52 AM   #528
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I've watched "Scorpion" and "Dark Frontier" several times since getting the Fan Collective: Borg earlier this year, and I have trouble believing the Queen's claim that Seven was a plant. In "Scorpion II", Borgified 7 of 9 was in the Jeffries crawlway when Chakotay opened the cargo bay airlock, sending her comrades into open space. Seven survives only by hanging onto the crawlway walls. If she hadn't, she would have been lost too. I doubt the Queen anticipated Chakotay decompressing the bay while Seven was in the crawlway. In other words, the Queen lied.
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Old April 26 2013, 08:00 AM   #529
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Melakon wrote: View Post
I've watched "Scorpion" and "Dark Frontier" several times since getting the Fan Collective: Borg earlier this year, and I have trouble believing the Queen's claim that Seven was a plant. In "Scorpion II", Borgified 7 of 9 was in the Jeffries crawlway when Chakotay opened the cargo bay airlock, sending her comrades into open space. Seven survives only by hanging onto the crawlway walls. If she hadn't, she would have been lost too. I doubt the Queen anticipated Chakotay decompressing the bay while Seven was in the crawlway. In other words, the Queen lied.
Oh no, Seven's not a plant, that's pretty obvious from the Dark Frontier dialogue, but it would have been far more interesting had she been as a story arc than what was done. Especially, if they'd done the writing to make the Queen's statement something equivocal for the audience so that Seven could be viewed either way. This would have been particularly easy with the Queen's freedom to dial up Seven whenever she was in regeneration for their little chats.
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Old April 26 2013, 08:04 AM   #530
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The Cardassian's didn't anticipate Caretaker, but they still got a spy on Board a Federation Star Ship in a position of extreme trust. Did they want that agent, on that ship? Probably not, but they did want an agent on a ship.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
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Old April 26 2013, 03:54 PM   #531
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The Borg is a gestalt mind of trillions the Federation allows to persist with the rights of a civilization.
Only they sort of didn't have a choice until grandma Janeway worked out how to stuff them.

Brings up the interesting question of what happened to those trillions of hive minds when they were cut off from the queen? Did they all go nuts? Did they land at the nearest habitable planet, build yurts and become tree-huggers? The possibilities are endless. We need a new series.
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Old April 26 2013, 04:19 PM   #532
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The Borg is a gestalt mind of trillions the Federation allows to persist with the rights of a civilization.
Only they sort of didn't have a choice until grandma Janeway worked out how to stuff them.

Brings up the interesting question of what happened to those trillions of hive minds when they were cut off from the queen? Did they all go nuts? Did they land at the nearest habitable planet, build yurts and become tree-huggers? The possibilities are endless. We need a new series.
Who says that took out the Borg. I mean seriously this isn't the first time the queen was killed, they probably just adapted and are planning on invading the crap out of the federation once they get the transwarp system back online.
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Old April 26 2013, 04:32 PM   #533
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The Borg is a gestalt mind of trillions the Federation allows to persist with the rights of a civilization.
Only they sort of didn't have a choice until grandma Janeway worked out how to stuff them.

Brings up the interesting question of what happened to those trillions of hive minds when they were cut off from the queen? Did they all go nuts? Did they land at the nearest habitable planet, build yurts and become tree-huggers? The possibilities are endless. We need a new series.
Who says that took out the Borg. I mean seriously this isn't the first time the queen was killed, they probably just adapted and are planning on invading the crap out of the federation once they get the transwarp system back online.
Which.. is basically what happens in the Destiny novels. Except there were no one cube games in that.
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Old April 26 2013, 04:35 PM   #534
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Deckerd wrote: View Post

Only they sort of didn't have a choice until grandma Janeway worked out how to stuff them.

Brings up the interesting question of what happened to those trillions of hive minds when they were cut off from the queen? Did they all go nuts? Did they land at the nearest habitable planet, build yurts and become tree-huggers? The possibilities are endless. We need a new series.
Who says that took out the Borg. I mean seriously this isn't the first time the queen was killed, they probably just adapted and are planning on invading the crap out of the federation once they get the transwarp system back online.
Which.. is basically what happens in the Destiny novels. Except there were no one cube games in that.
Actually there was at first its just they waited hours to days instead of years between sending the next one until they were condiment enough in the substance corridor things for the full scale invasion.
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Old April 26 2013, 04:49 PM   #535
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The Borg is a gestalt mind of trillions the Federation allows to persist with the rights of a civilization.
Brings up the interesting question of what happened to those trillions of hive minds when they were cut off from the queen? Did they all go nuts? Did they land at the nearest habitable planet, build yurts and become tree-huggers? The possibilities are endless. We need a new series.
That question was answered in both TNG starting with Hugh and with Voyager beginning with Seven. Drones separated from the hive mind revert to individuality. We saw that over and over. Picard, Seven, Hugh, Riley Frazier and the rest of her cube, Lansor, P'Chan and Marika Wilkarah from "Survival Instinct, in every case they reverted to individuality. The only drones we saw that wanted to return to the Hive Mind were those like Seven and the Borg Children in "Child's Play." and even the children got over it pretty quickly.
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Old April 26 2013, 11:16 PM   #536
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I can see entrepreneurial former drones licensing technological advancements to various planets. Especially if there had been Borgified Ferengi.
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Old April 27 2013, 12:31 AM   #537
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I can see a lot of Cubes being a situation where they plain blow up because their crew will stop doing their jobs when they really need to be doing their jobs.

Hugh did not "return" to individuality, he became a blank slate, he still thought the Borg were awesome and he accepted the consequences that the Borg would go apeshit to get him back because the collective loved him, but that might just be because Hugh had been assimilated as a baby and did not have a prior life to draw back onto.

i have met people on this board who think that the Borg were destroyed completely in Endgame. I might have started a poll about it because I was so agog that after 10 years, that I hadn't noticed that they were all dead an buried, and niether had the folkes over in pocket books which is when I found out that Pocket books said that 60 percent of the collective had been destroyed in Endgame, which brought the Borg in force to the Alpha Quadrant who then killed 900 billion people.

It's almost like someone should have gone back in time and Killed Admiral Janeway and perhaps everyone else on Voyager, to save the Federation from a Borg Apocalypse...

But every other tie a Cube has gotten infected... Hugh, Icheb and the kids or Seven when they gave her Ichebs Borg AIDS... The Borg had firewalls in place that the infection did not spread. But what the Queen doe is unique and decentralized and unborg that of course a crippling blow on her would result in a crippling blow on the totality of the collective!

The Queen is a stupid idea.
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Old April 27 2013, 12:37 AM   #538
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Yeah.. the Queen's insanity reaches a peak during Unimatrix zero... what there's one individual on that cube with hundreds of thousands of people. Activate self destruct!

I suppose if the Queen was President she'd deal with an Al Qaida cell in New York by dropping an atomic bomb on the city.
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Old April 27 2013, 12:49 AM   #539
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Really? There's an Al Qaida problem in New York?

Surely if the government subsidized musical theatre to the point that it's completely free, the problem would just unwind and fizzle out?
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Old April 27 2013, 12:53 AM   #540
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Scaramouche, Scaramouche!
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