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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 25 2013, 09:31 PM   #196
FKnight
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
FKnight wrote: View Post
I come back to this thread and I see people still think "Geographical boundaries recognized by treaty, influence and/or presence" and "Planets subject to Federation law" are the same thing. Geography and politics aren't the same things. Hell, they aren't even depicted on the same type of map.

But please, go on thinking the United Federation of Planets is a conquering force that subjects everyone within a defined radius around Earth to their laws regardless of whether those people have been on that planet before Earth even knew what a warp coil was.

Please proceed to throw out everything we know about how planets join the Federation too.

Edit to add: It's the United Federation of Planets.

I don't want to know what alternate version of the movie you people are watching .. I want to know what franchise you people have been watching.

that's nice. So it's not a Federation planet. So the Son'a are free to come in and remove the Baku then, right?
Actually, yes. At least they're free to try. And the Baku are free to try to stop them. This is a textbook internal affair. It has nothing to do with the Federation and they shouldn't be involved in the Baku/Sona internal issue. If the Sona come in and nuke the planet, oh well.

(insert sound of spluttering, ready the moving of goalposts to show that NOW, the Federation actually has a DUTY to defend the Baku, common sense and the PD be disregarded)
Don't make assumptions. I'm consistent and you have absolutely no reason to assume I will move goal posts, unless you can provide evidence that I've done so in the past. The Federation has no right to interfere with the Baku's sovereignty on that planet, and the Federation likewise has no right to interfere if the Sona mess with them either.
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Old April 25 2013, 10:28 PM   #197
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

FKnight wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
FKnight wrote: View Post
I come back to this thread and I see people still think "Geographical boundaries recognized by treaty, influence and/or presence" and "Planets subject to Federation law" are the same thing. Geography and politics aren't the same things. Hell, they aren't even depicted on the same type of map.

But please, go on thinking the United Federation of Planets is a conquering force that subjects everyone within a defined radius around Earth to their laws regardless of whether those people have been on that planet before Earth even knew what a warp coil was.

Please proceed to throw out everything we know about how planets join the Federation too.

Edit to add: It's the United Federation of Planets.

I don't want to know what alternate version of the movie you people are watching .. I want to know what franchise you people have been watching.

that's nice. So it's not a Federation planet. So the Son'a are free to come in and remove the Baku then, right?
Actually, yes. At least they're free to try. And the Baku are free to try to stop them. This is a textbook internal affair. It has nothing to do with the Federation and they shouldn't be involved in the Baku/Sona internal issue. If the Sona come in and nuke the planet, oh well.

(insert sound of spluttering, ready the moving of goalposts to show that NOW, the Federation actually has a DUTY to defend the Baku, common sense and the PD be disregarded)
Don't make assumptions. I'm consistent and you have absolutely no reason to assume I will move goal posts, unless you can provide evidence that I've done so in the past. The Federation has no right to interfere with the Baku's sovereignty on that planet, and the Federation likewise has no right to interfere if the Sona mess with them either.

fair enough, so you're consistent. There are still a couple of issues:

1. if NO ONE considered it a Federation planet, why was the outpost there at all? Why didn't the Council just say to the Son'a "do whatever you want, it's not our planet anyway" when Ru'afo approached them with the deal? Obviously, the UFP and Son'a BOTH thought it was a Federation planet.

2. My argument just shows that the entire movie is based around a stupid premise. The Baku, as a small village of Luddite pacifists, was basically doomed either way if common sense was prevailing. Either the Federation would legally relocate them, or if they gave up any claim to the planet, then ANY power could just come in and kill them or remove them. The ONLY scenario in which the Baku are okay is one in which the Federation takes on a more or less PERMANENT role as guardians of the Baku and their stupid, selfish lifestyle while they give nothing back to the Federation.
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Old April 25 2013, 10:42 PM   #198
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

R. Star wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
CaptainStoner wrote: View Post
Yes, the Sona were out of control and had to be stopped, not to mention reported to starfleet, which was in the dark.
Yes, the movie has plot holes. They all do.

Insurrection threads make my boobs firm up.

in what way were the Son'a "out of control?" The first part of the movie showed them calmly and completely cooperating with Starfleet on the "duck blind" mission, a mission that required a lot of patience. Again, the Son'a ONLY retaliated in response to Picard's sabotage of the plan, they had been nothing but cooperative up to that point.

And Starfleet wasn't in the dark, Dougerty was an admiral who was acting on orders from the Federation Council itself.
For the first freaking hour of the movie the most villainous thing Ruafo did was bleed on Picard's carpet. It wasn't until Picard took off his pips and started openly screwing with them did he retaliate. Even then we was working with Dougherty by including him in the plans and asking his consent.
Asking his consent to kill federation citizens for complaining to their government hence why Picard pointed out the Dougherty had probably stepped in it since their isn't any damned way to justify an unprovoked attack and yeas it was unprovoked becuase while Picard was playing insurgent Riker was leaving as per the orders from Admiral Dougherty.

sonak wrote: View Post
FKnight wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


that's nice. So it's not a Federation planet. So the Son'a are free to come in and remove the Baku then, right?
Actually, yes. At least they're free to try. And the Baku are free to try to stop them. This is a textbook internal affair. It has nothing to do with the Federation and they shouldn't be involved in the Baku/Sona internal issue. If the Sona come in and nuke the planet, oh well.

(insert sound of spluttering, ready the moving of goalposts to show that NOW, the Federation actually has a DUTY to defend the Baku, common sense and the PD be disregarded)
Don't make assumptions. I'm consistent and you have absolutely no reason to assume I will move goal posts, unless you can provide evidence that I've done so in the past. The Federation has no right to interfere with the Baku's sovereignty on that planet, and the Federation likewise has no right to interfere if the Sona mess with them either.

fair enough, so you're consistent. There are still a couple of issues:

1. if NO ONE considered it a Federation planet, why was the outpost there at all? Why didn't the Council just say to the Son'a "do whatever you want, it's not our planet anyway" when Ru'afo approached them with the deal? Obviously, the UFP and Son'a BOTH thought it was a Federation planet.
Becuase the federation observes pre-warp cultures all the time. Seriously there were episodes that covered this did you miss them or something.
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Old April 25 2013, 10:56 PM   #199
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


in what way were the Son'a "out of control?" The first part of the movie showed them calmly and completely cooperating with Starfleet on the "duck blind" mission, a mission that required a lot of patience. Again, the Son'a ONLY retaliated in response to Picard's sabotage of the plan, they had been nothing but cooperative up to that point.

And Starfleet wasn't in the dark, Dougerty was an admiral who was acting on orders from the Federation Council itself.
For the first freaking hour of the movie the most villainous thing Ruafo did was bleed on Picard's carpet. It wasn't until Picard took off his pips and started openly screwing with them did he retaliate. Even then we was working with Dougherty by including him in the plans and asking his consent.
Asking his consent to kill federation citizens for complaining to their government hence why Picard pointed out the Dougherty had probably stepped in it since their isn't any damned way to justify an unprovoked attack and yeas it was unprovoked becuase while Picard was playing insurgent Riker was leaving as per the orders from Admiral Dougherty.

sonak wrote: View Post
FKnight wrote: View Post

Actually, yes. At least they're free to try. And the Baku are free to try to stop them. This is a textbook internal affair. It has nothing to do with the Federation and they shouldn't be involved in the Baku/Sona internal issue. If the Sona come in and nuke the planet, oh well.

Don't make assumptions. I'm consistent and you have absolutely no reason to assume I will move goal posts, unless you can provide evidence that I've done so in the past. The Federation has no right to interfere with the Baku's sovereignty on that planet, and the Federation likewise has no right to interfere if the Sona mess with them either.

fair enough, so you're consistent. There are still a couple of issues:

1. if NO ONE considered it a Federation planet, why was the outpost there at all? Why didn't the Council just say to the Son'a "do whatever you want, it's not our planet anyway" when Ru'afo approached them with the deal? Obviously, the UFP and Son'a BOTH thought it was a Federation planet.
Becuase the federation observes pre-warp cultures all the time. Seriously there were episodes that covered this did you miss them or something.

um, no. Clearly you didn't understand my point-the outpost was about observing the village in order to carry out the relocation plan with the Son'a. If it wasn't a Federation planet, they wouldn't need to do that-the Son'a would have come in and just beamed them all up whenever they felt like it, or just came down there with guns and rounded them up.
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Old April 26 2013, 03:35 PM   #200
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Baku is a planet in Federation space but it is not a member of the Federation. This is probably fairly common, after all the Feds don't force anybody to join their club.

I think the main point of the posters who think that Picard made an error is that there is a resource of enormous value which should be shared with everybody. I agree, it is not okay than only a few hundred people should gain from a "fountain of youth". But it is neither okay to just steal it from them as the Sona and Federation tried to.

And it is certainly not OK to judge the way of life of any of those numerous lifeforms out there. That's just Prime Directive 101. The Klingons are bloodthirsty predators and we certainly defend ourselves against them but we don't force our ethics down their throat. Biological fundamentals matter, it is very unlikely that such a predator creature would ever join the UFP. Thankfully even the Klingons have a hunch about the Prime Directive, the understand that there aren't just noble warriors like themselves but also coward weaklings out there and while they claim that today is a good day to die they are not that eager to do total war.

Same applies for a bunch of hippies. Not our job to judge them and they definitely don't harm us. But making an alliance with a bunch of "petty thugs" that stab you in the back at the first chance they get just in order to gain an ally in the Dominion War? That's just suicidally idiotic.

I don't mind criticism of the movie, its script is certainly not perfect. But denying what happened on the screen and pretending that fair is foul and foul is fair, that the hippies are wicked resource stealers who don't wanna share (ehm, nobody asked them) whereas the Sona are decent folks is simply factually wrong.

The movie as it stands is a simple morality tale and as FKnight has pointed out there are no options anyway, the Feds have to obey the Prime Directive. And before a big discussion about the Prime Directive starts, I like to watch and talk about Trek. The real Trek, not a hypothetical Mirror Universe Trek where the Sona are our lovely new allies and the Prime Directive doesn't exist.
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Old April 26 2013, 03:52 PM   #201
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Baku is a planet in Federation space but it is not a member of the Federation. This is probably fairly common, after all the Feds don't force anybody to join their club.

I think the main point of the posters who think that Picard made an error is that there is a resource of enormous value which should be shared with everybody. I agree, it is not okay than only a few hundred people should gain from a "fountain of youth". But it is neither okay to just steal it from them as the Sona and Federation tried to.

And it is certainly not OK to judge the way of life of any of those numerous lifeforms out there. That's just Prime Directive 101. The Klingons are bloodthirsty predators and we certainly defend ourselves against them but we don't force our ethics down their throat. Biological fundamentals matter, it is very unlikely that such a predator creature would ever join the UFP. Thankfully even the Klingons have a hunch about the Prime Directive, the understand that there aren't just noble warriors like themselves but also coward weaklings out there and while they claim that today is a good day to die they are not that eager to do total war.

Same applies for a bunch of hippies. Not our job to judge them and they definitely don't harm us. But making an alliance with a bunch of "petty thugs" that stab you in the back at the first chance they get just in order to gain an ally in the Dominion War? That's just suicidally idiotic.

I don't mind criticism of the movie, its script is certainly not perfect. But denying what happened on the screen and pretending that fair is foul and foul is fair, that the hippies are wicked resource stealers who don't wanna share (ehm, nobody asked them) whereas the Sona are decent folks is simply factually wrong.

The movie as it stands is a simple morality tale and as FKnight has pointed out there are no options anyway, the Feds have to obey the Prime Directive. And before a big discussion about the Prime Directive starts, I like to watch and talk about Trek. The real Trek, not a hypothetical Mirror Universe Trek where the Sona are our lovely new allies and the Prime Directive doesn't exist.

1. The Prime Directive actually goes against your argument here. If you're invoking the PD then the Son'a should be able to handle the Baku themselves

2. As I and others have repeatedly pointed out, there is ZERO on-screen evidence that the Son'a were going to betray the Federation. This keeps getting brought up, and let's just resolve it right here: what evidence from the movie do you have on this? The Son'a spent MONTHS following the Federation's lead on this, going along with a plan that they didn't even like, just to be cooperative. They ONLY turned against the Federation after Picard sabotaged the plan. Enough with the "the son'a were going to betray them!" nonsense. It's the SON'A WHO WERE BETRAYED!

3. The Baku had been living on that planet for three centuries, never telling anyone else what they'd found. The perfectly logical conclusion from this is that they didn't care at all to bring this revolutionary resource to the rest of the galaxy, therefore it makes perfect sense to conclude that they are utterly selfish and self-centered.
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Old April 26 2013, 03:58 PM   #202
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Question for those in favor of Picard's actions- if the Baku had bottled up the particles themselves (as opposed to settling on the planet they orbit), used them only to benefit themselves, and would not share them, would you still be sympathetic to their supposed plight?

Because it seems to me that that's effectively what's going on here - the Baku have access to a technology that could be used to help others' suffering and will not share it.

The "they were never asked to share it" argument is bollocks because even if they were never asked previously they certainly become aware of the situation during the events of the film. And if we're going to look at this from a moral standpoint, morally I think it's quite acceptable to offer to help suffering people rather than waiting for them to ask you.

In short I believe this boils down to either weak writing or the Baku not being the type of people the Feds should necessarily be setting out to defend.
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Old April 26 2013, 04:32 PM   #203
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

DonIago wrote: View Post
Question for those in favor of Picard's actions- if the Baku had bottled up the particles themselves (as opposed to settling on the planet they orbit), used them only to benefit themselves, and would not share them, would you still be sympathetic to their supposed plight?
So Kirk should have invaded and conquered the Halkans to get the dilithium they didn't want to give the federation because they were pacifists is basically what you are saying.

Because thats basically the same principal as its just the some more dirty hippies who don't want to share their awesome resource with the mighty federation don't deserve to keep it argument.

And yet Kirk did not do this.

Or heck lets look at Kodos the Executioner all he was doing was killing all those selfish people who didn't want to starve to death so the people he decided to let live would have food, so obviously needs of the many and all that jazz
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Old April 26 2013, 04:49 PM   #204
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Question for those in favor of Picard's actions- if the Baku had bottled up the particles themselves (as opposed to settling on the planet they orbit), used them only to benefit themselves, and would not share them, would you still be sympathetic to their supposed plight?
So Kirk should have invaded and conquered the Halkans to get the dilithium they didn't want to give the federation because they were pacifists is basically what you are saying.

Because thats basically the same principal as its just the some more dirty hippies who don't want to share their awesome resource with the mighty federation don't deserve to keep it argument.

And yet Kirk did not do this.

Or heck lets look at Kodos the Executioner all he was doing was killing all those selfish people who didn't want to starve to death so the people he decided to let live would have food, so obviously needs of the many and all that jazz
The question wasn't directed at me, but...

I do think that during wartime, Kirk would have been fully justified in taking the dilithium by force if it might have meant the difference between victory and defeat, which is the situation the UFP was presented with in INS. The situation with Kodos was not analogous.

Also, even if the Federation isn't willing to take it themselves, that's a FAR CRY from actually taking on the responsibility of DEFENDING these selfish hypocrites, which is what we see in the movie.
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Old April 26 2013, 05:51 PM   #205
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
I do think that during wartime, Kirk would have been fully justified in taking the dilithium by force if it might have meant the difference between victory and defeat,
Yeah, see I think Kirk wouldn't do that seeing as he isn't a Klingon. That was kind of the freaking point of showing the differences between the two universes in that episode.

See I can figure this because while he wasn't too happy about the Organians not fighting the Klingons he didn't just shove a phaser in their hands and force them to fight the Klingons. He also didn't just beam down to the planet a declare the Federation's intention to build a base there he negotiated with the locals.

which is the situation the UFP was presented with in INS.
No it really wasn't.
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Old April 26 2013, 07:01 PM   #206
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

No, Kirk shouldn't have stolen dilithium from the Halkans. But what happens when a hostile power comes knocking on their door? Is it Kirk's duty to defend them at that point? Is it realistic to expect the Federation to devote resources to protecting a planet that will grant them nothing in return?

IIRC, the Kodos situation involved the planet being hit by a famine and there not being enough food to keep everyone alive. Kodos hence opted to eliminate X% of the population so that there would be enough food for everyone else. Hardly an approach that anyone will commend him for, but I don't see any good options here.
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Old April 26 2013, 09:10 PM   #207
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
I do think that during wartime, Kirk would have been fully justified in taking the dilithium by force if it might have meant the difference between victory and defeat,
Yeah, see I think Kirk wouldn't do that seeing as he isn't a Klingon. That was kind of the freaking point of showing the differences between the two universes in that episode.

See I can figure this because while he wasn't too happy about the Organians not fighting the Klingons he didn't just shove a phaser in their hands and force them to fight the Klingons. He also didn't just beam down to the planet a declare the Federation's intention to build a base there he negotiated with the locals.

which is the situation the UFP was presented with in INS.
No it really wasn't.

You can keep denying that the situation was not an issue of a valuable resource during a time of war, but it's not the case.

Contrast what Sisko did in "in the pale moonlight," where his actions cost millions of Romulan lives to win the war, with the moral absurdities of "Insurrection," where Picard refuses to MOVE 600 people to help win the war.


At any rate, as has been shown in this thread, the Baku are doomed either way. If it's not a Federation planet, then the PD means the Son'a remove the Baku any way, so I don't really see what you're arguing here?


whether the Federation removes the Baku themselves and gets the particles, OR they get them after the Son'a do it, it's an academic distinction.
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Old April 26 2013, 09:21 PM   #208
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

It really comes down to the fact that the script says they're the good guys and the Baku are the innocent victims. As for the plot not making sense in some places, and making the so called good guys look bad in others.... kinda like the Wizard of Oz... pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. And some people seem to buy that.
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Old April 26 2013, 09:42 PM   #209
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

So you have a planet that's within Federation space but not a member of the Federation. You have a race which isn't part of the Federation but want's to travel to that planet, would it not be polite to ask the Federation permission to traverse their space? The Federation of course would ask why to you want to go there, and perhaps Federation invovlment started there.
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Old April 26 2013, 09:51 PM   #210
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

MacLeod wrote: View Post
So you have a planet that's within Federation space but not a member of the Federation. You have a race which isn't part of the Federation but want's to travel to that planet, would it not be polite to ask the Federation permission to traverse their space? The Federation of course would ask why to you want to go there, and perhaps Federation invovlment started there.

sure, but if the Son'a tell them the truth, then the Federation's going to decide that it's a PD issue, and an internal conflict between the Son'a and the Baku.(Picard HIMSELF calls it a "blood feud.") There response SHOULD BE "do whatever you want, not our problem, we'll be happy to keep this secret between us and we'll buy your particles that you get from this."

So either the Son'a are incredibly stupid for not just telling the Federation the truth, OR WE'RE MEANT TO THINK IT'S REGARDED AS A FEDERATION PLANET. Otherwise, the Son'a-UFP partnership makes no sense.


Again, the movie's premise is just unsalvageable. At least it is when you throw in the Son'a-Baku relationship. The Baku, as written, are a doomed society either way UNLESS the Federation is willing to just permanently defend them in violation of the PD for no real reason, while getting NOTHING from the Baku.
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