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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old April 25 2013, 12:32 AM   #211
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Warped9 wrote: View Post
The notation on the graphic is for a MK-IX/01 Constitution-class starship. I think the idea for the graphic was to show Khan reading up about the kind of ship he finds himself aboard. If that's what the graphic was meant to convey than at least as far back as "Space Seed" the Enterprise is supposed to be a Constitution-class ship. And the /01 added to the MK-IX might be supposed to mean the graphic is of the Enterprise's primary phaser. The same thinking could be in effect when the graphic finally shows up onscreen in "The Trouble With Tribbles."
As I said before, I guess it might be open to interpretation whether we are to assume that Khan was interested in the Enterprise and its class of starship or if he was, instead, reading up on other kinds and classes of starships from other eras that might have been forerunners to the Enterprise.

It turns out, there's an answer to the question. Matt Jefferies actually had a set of marching orders: the script. He didn't just create any old graphic he wanted. The script for "Space Seed" actually has a pretty significant line:

Khan:
"I was once an engineer of sorts. I would be most interested in studying the tech manual on your vessel."

(Note that Khan says that he is interested in learning about "your vessel," not "vessels that are earlier forerunners and somewhat similar to this one.") I don't know how well Jeferies actually hit this target artistically, but I think his target was clear.)
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Old April 25 2013, 12:40 AM   #212
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

GSchnitzer wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
The notation on the graphic is for a MK-IX/01 Constitution-class starship. I think the idea for the graphic was to show Khan reading up about the kind of ship he finds himself aboard. If that's what the graphic was meant to convey than at least as far back as "Space Seed" the Enterprise is supposed to be a Constitution-class ship. And the /01 added to the MK-IX might be supposed to mean the graphic is of the Enterprise's primary phaser. The same thinking could be in effect when the graphic finally shows up onscreen in "The Trouble With Tribbles."
As I said before, I guess might be open to interpretation whether we are to assume that Khan was interested in the Enterprise and its class of starship or if he was, instead, reading up on other kinds and classes of starships from other eras that might have been forerunners to the Enterprise.

It turns out, there's an answer to the question. Matt Jefferies actually had a set of marching orders: the script. He didn't just create any old graphic he wanted. The script for "Space Seed" actually has a pretty significant line:

Khan:
"I was once an engineer of sorts. I would be most interested in studying the tech manual on your vessel."

(Note that Khan says that he is interested in learning about "your vessel," not "vessels that are earlier forerunners and somewhat similar to this one.") I don't know how well Jeferies actually hit this target artistically, but I think his target was clear.)
I think that's well reasoned.
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Old April 25 2013, 01:30 AM   #213
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Yep. That is as conclusive as it gets. I have to admit it is a little odd, given the situation, that he WOULDN'T have made it read ENTERPRISE CLASS, just to make it all the more clear what Khan was doing (and assuming these various displays were being made with a close up in mind). He must have been told to put something else there so it wouldn't be so obvious what Khan was doing.
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Old April 25 2013, 01:51 AM   #214
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

aridas sofia wrote: View Post
Yep. That is as conclusive as it gets. I have to admit it is a little odd, given the situation, that he WOULDN'T have made it read ENTERPRISE CLASS, just to make it all the more clear what Khan was doing (and assuming these various displays were being made with a close up in mind). He must have been told to put something else there so it wouldn't be so obvious what Khan was doing.
Yes, it wasn't really his call what class name to use. He just made pretty much what the "Space Seed" script asked of him. Scene 44 of the Second Revised Final Draft for "Space Seed," dated December 13, 1966 has the following content:


"44 ANGLE ON SICK BAY VIEWER

"It is covered with mathematical symbols and diagrams. CAMERA PULLS BACK to show Khan studying with great concentration. He pushes a button. Another transparency appears: a chapter heading, reading: BASIC SPECIFICATIONS, CONSTITUTION CLASS STAR SHIP."

Scenes 47 and 48 have similar content:

From 47:

"...At the door, she [McGivers] turns and looks back at him. He gives her a strong, masculine, confident smile. She is about to say something, but turns and exits. Khan turns back to his studying. He pushes a button, stares back up at his screen.

"48 INSERT SCREEN

"A chapter heading: Basic Propulsion Systems, Constitution Class Star Ship."

So, yes, he was told what those graphics from Scenes 44 and 48 should contain. In the end, folks who thought that Khan, reading a screen about a Constitution Class starship after asking Kirk for a tech manual on Kirk's ship, implied that Kirk's ship was a Constitution Class starship can be forgiven. It doesn't seem like a bizzare leap to have made--and, in fact, I think it's the very leap we were supposed to make.
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Old April 25 2013, 01:59 AM   #215
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

I have no problem with the E being Constitution-class. I have no problem with the Constitution being the first of the line. Despite MJ's later explanation I think it's what's onscreen that takes primacy. I don't have a problem with the Republic and Constellation being older upgraded ships (mind you never having actually seen the Republic it could actually be another class). I prefer the rest of the 17 series registries being sequential because it's simply more straightforward. Unless there is strong evidence that other ships mentioned onscreen had non 17 series registries that makes the registry really system weird.

I just don't care for Jein's assumption that all the numbers on Stone's wall chart are Constitution-class. It's just too small world for my liking. It's more credible if the chart represents a mix of ship classes.
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Old April 25 2013, 03:10 AM   #216
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Warped9 wrote: View Post
I have no problem with the E being Constitution-class. I have no problem with the Constitution being the first of the line. Despite MJ's later explanation I think it's what's onscreen that takes primacy. I don't have a problem with the Republic and Constellation being older upgraded ships (mind you never having actually seen the Republic it could actually be another class). I prefer the rest of the 17 series registries being sequential because it's simply more straightforward. Unless there is strong evidence that other ships mentioned onscreen had non 17 series registries that makes the registry really system weird.

I just don't care for Jein's assumption that all the numbers on Stone's wall chart are Constitution-class. It's just too small world for my liking. It's more credible if the chart represents a mix of ship classes.
SFAF COMMAND
FROM STARFLEET HEADQUARTERS
TO ALL SECTORS
SD 1016.2

DO NOT CREATE VESSEL REGISTRY NUMBERS THAT WILL ALLOW FOREIGN POWERS TO EXTRAPOLATE OUR OVERALL FLEET STRENGTH BASED SIMPLY ON OBVIOUS VESSEL NUMBERING.

END COMMUNICATION
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Old April 25 2013, 03:22 AM   #217
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

^^ You know in all these years I've never heard of such a simple and elegant explanation for weird registry numbers than what you've just suggested. Everything else I've ever heard was just too contrived or convoluted.
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Old April 25 2013, 02:22 PM   #218
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Apparently Lenny Nurdbol was excommunicated for the derogatory language he couldn't resist using.

If he’d been excommunicated for being stubborn and/or twisting "facts" to fit his theories at the expense of others, there'd be some participants here that should worry, too.

This is the fourth (?) debate I’m participating on the „Class Issue“ and despite new dialogue evidence I presented in post # 177 on page 12 to prevent Greg Schnitzer from using up thread space with his screenplay excerpts he did it – yet again – and – worse – deliberately ignored the other Khan dialogue I quoted word by word which makes it abundantly clear that to fabricate the conclusion that Khan is ONLY reading the technical manual of the Enterprise is not only totally conjectural but wrong.

“I’ve been reading up on starships (MORE THAN ONE CLASS!), but they have a luxury not mentioned in the manuals. (MORE THAN ONE MANUAL !)” Khan

(He doesn't say "I've been reading up on your starship" !!!)

Equally, in “The Trouble With Tribbles”, Scotty is not reading the manual of the Enterprise but simply a “technical journal”:

“Another technical journal, Scotty?” “Aye” (= YES)

The other thing that has been brought up, again, is to doubt the genuine pre-production nature of the Jefferies sketch which obviously shows the TOS Enterprise and states it’s the “first in the series” (at the expense of Walter Matt Jefferies, the creator of the Enterprise - !!! – who has now somehow fallen under suspicion of having made that drawing at a later time to propagate his Enterprise Class preference ).


You don’t have to be a forensic expert to notice that this is not a sketch from the 1970’s during the Phase II project:
  • The “J” in the “Jefferies” signature is still the same as in those original 1960’s production sketches in contrast to the “J” in the Phase II sketches
  • The Phase II sketches have month and year, the original ones never or hardly had
  • The drawing is totally compatible with the style of the established original production sketches, the bow of the engineering hull may not have the spheres or baby cups but it’s definitely the same style
Then we have clear “Enterprise Class” references twice in The Making of Star Trek which also states that Constitution was among one of the last names chosen for Enterprise sister ships.


Had the producers / creators felt after “Space Seed” and prior to their name finding, that the Enterprise was a member of the Constitution Class
  • The Making of Star Trek would have never used “Enterprise Class”
  • The Constitution would have been on the first name list Bob Justman (nitpicky and accurate as he was) had compiled (or D.C. Fontana's one...)
And last but not least, despite what he failed to say in the 1960’s or what he had to say in the early 2000’s, Matt Jefferies was the father and creator of the Enterprise, and as such he was the authority on the subject and not some “Lost in Space” fan or a Trekker who got lost in a pet theory invoking divine design.

I'm not running around the Trek BBS making unsubstantiated claims and fail to deliver hints, substance or evidence. If you choose to ignore this by not discussing it (because it's not compatible with your beliefs), I wonder what is the actual distinction between some Trek BBS participants and the likes of James Dixon / Lenny Nurdbol except to refrain from using fool language.

Bob
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Old April 25 2013, 02:49 PM   #219
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I wonder what is the actual distinction between some Trek BBS participants and the likes of James Dixon / Lenny Nurdbol except to refrain from using fool language.
A Freudian slip?



Listen, I've asked folks to move on from this. He was a dual of a banned member. Case closed.

I'm trying to be patient since obviously this topic has some energy behind it (which is kind of strange to me, but whatever...). I'm asking again: please, take it easy. There is nothing in here worth getting angry or personal about.
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Old April 25 2013, 03:27 PM   #220
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
“I’ve been reading up on starships (MORE THAN ONE CLASS!), but they have a luxury not mentioned in the manuals. (MORE THAN ONE MANUAL !)” Khan

(He doesn't say "I've been reading up on your starship" !!!)
Couldn't he have meant "I've been reading up on starships (of this class)"?

The plural could have referred to multiple ships of a single class, rather than multiple classes.

And I'm sure the entire ship isn't covered in a single manual.

Just my two cents
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Old April 25 2013, 05:54 PM   #221
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

One thing to keep in mind is that they seemed (back then) to be using the word "class" as we would use "class" and "type/role", they had "Constitution Class", "Starship" or "Star Ship Class", and "destroyer Class" (Kirk's first command). So just seeing the word class on a memo, screen, script you can't say it's class the way we use it. We would say "Centaur-type" since we don't know the class of the ship, they'd probably say class.
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Old April 25 2013, 09:07 PM   #222
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote:
"I quoted word by word which makes it abundantly clear that to fabricate the conclusion that Khan is ONLY reading the technical manual of the Enterprise is not only totally conjectural but wrong."

Of course it's conjectural because nothing else is said about it in the episode but the conclusion it was about Constitution class starships is logical. He was reading up on the technical manual of Enterprise systems so he could frickin' take over the ship! Why in the heck would he want to study a ships systems that were of no use to him and that he may never see? There was a point to his research which was to learn everything he could about the Enterprise and use that information as he needed to. This man was a leader and conqueror; he was not merely interested in studying the technology of the era. His research had immediate purpose.
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Old April 26 2013, 12:32 AM   #223
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Equally, in “The Trouble With Tribbles”, Scotty is not reading the manual of the Enterprise but simply a “technical journal”:

“Another technical journal, Scotty?” “Aye” (= YES)
But you’re ignoring that this graphic was originally intended and created for "Space Seed" and all the contextual evidence that goes with this knowledge about Khan reading up specifically on ships like the one he is on and intends to take over, as feek61 pointed out.

…Matt Jefferies was the father and creator of the Enterprise, and as such he was the authority on the subject and not some “Lost in Space” fan or a Trekker who got lost in a pet theory invoking divine design.
Like yourself perhaps?

One thing that a lot of people conveniently ignore is that the Enterprise is as much Roddenberry's baby as it is Jefferies' If it had not been for Roddenberry constantly refining what Jefferies was coming up with, the enterprise would not look anything like it does, but more like the early sphere or ring ships, or worse!
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Old April 26 2013, 04:28 AM   #224
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
This is the fourth (?) debate I’m participating on the „Class Issue“ and despite new dialogue evidence I presented in post # 177 on page 12 to prevent Greg Schnitzer from using up thread space with his screenplay excerpts he did it – yet again – and – worse – deliberately ignored the other Khan dialogue I quoted word by word which makes it abundantly clear that to fabricate the conclusion that Khan is ONLY reading the technical manual of the Enterprise is not only totally conjectural but wrong.
Robert Comsol:


I think you misunderstand. I'm not actually rallying for the notion that the Enterprise is a Constitution class star ship. I don't really care all that much, and I don't have a dog in that silly fictional hunt. To me, it's all a lot of fan wankery. My point in all this is your original question from the old "NCC = Not Constitution Class?" TrekBBS thread:



"So where does that erroneous idea of a Constitution Class come from?"


"What was there to conclude that Enterprise would be a Constitution Class starship?"


"Mr. Franz Joseph...introduced the idea of the Constition Class...with his Star Trek Blueprints and the Star Trek Technical Manual."


"The problem with Franz Joseph is that he simply copied Greg Jein's findings."


"Again, the entire...USS Constitution business was an invention of Greg Jein made to fit a pet theory of his which then was adopted by Franz Joseph Schnaubelt."


"Compare it to the quoted / illustrated text from the original Star Trek Concordance and you'll notice that the "Constitution Class" part has deliberately been added to make it appear official. (I consider this to be fraudulent behaviour.)"



In all this, by your own admission, you didn't know that "Constitution class star ship" was actually scripted in a Star Trek episode script. You thought the earliest reference to Constitution class was just an illegible screen graphic in "The Trouble with Tribbles." What I did, since you were unaware of it, was reproduce the relevent script information from the "Space Seed" script that ultimately gave rise to Matt Jefferies' "Constitution class star ship" diagram. I've done this a few times, but you still seem unclear. The "Space Seed" script with its "Constitution class star ship" commant and with the diagram to which it gave rise is the answer to your question. That's how Bjo Trimble in 1968, Greg Jein in April of 1973 and then Franz Joseph Schnaubelt in September of 1973 concluded that the Enterprise was a Constitution class star ship. It wasn't Bjo's "fradulence," or "Greg Jein's pet theory," or "Franz Joseph Schnaubelt's introduction," or "Franz Joseph Schnaubelt's copying or adoption of Greg Jein's theory,"


I don't actually know (nor really care) if Bjo Trimble and Greg Jein and Franz Joseph Schnaubelt reached the "right" decision about the fictional class of the fictional Enterprise. I don't know nor really care what "class" the Enterprise "really" is. "Space Seed" has Khan asking Kirk for information about "your ship" and then it indicates Khan is reading about a "Constitution class star ship," and then, yes, there is dialog that says Khan has been reading "manuals about starships." So does this mean "Constitution class" relates to the Enterprise or, does it instead, relate to some other class of star ship to which the Enterprise doesn't belong? You seem to think the evidence is compelling that any reference to a "Constitution class" refers to something other than the Enterprise. You think that if Scotty saw the diagram in some non-script-specified star ship context, then Khan must have also been looking at the same diagram without the benefit of a script-specifed context. But all that is actually now a different issue from your original "where did that idea originate?" question.

I think it's clear that they all got their "Enterprise is a Constitution class star ship" idea from the "Space Seed" script and from the resulting Jefferies diagram. Should they have given more weight to Khan's "manuals about starships" dialogue? Should they have reached the "more accurate" conclusion that "Constitution class" referred to something other than the Enterprise?

Frankly, I don't care about trying to divine the unknowable answer in a fictional universe. My point is that these people reached their conclusion, rightly or wrongly, based on actual Star Trek production information that you seem to not even have known about. They reached their decisions, rightly or wrongly, without the benefit of DVDs or VHS tapes or reel-to-reel videotape recorders or some drawing by Matt Jefferies that didn't even surface (and might not even have existed) until decades later.


Just because you didn't know about the "Constitution class star ship" production material from "Space Seed" doesn't mean that others more in-the-know than you must have simply fabricated the information. I find your notion to be insulting to those good people.
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Old April 29 2013, 11:14 AM   #225
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

@ 1001001

Oops...I honestly did intend to write "foul language", so apparently it could be a Freudian slip, but then again, foul language is usually the trademark of fools, isn't it?

@ GSchnitzer

Yes, before you brought it up, I wasn't aware of the "Constitution Class Starship" reference in the "Space Seed" script.

What's really interesting here is this: According to his treatise, Greg Jein explicitly mentioned the "Space Seed" script but focused entirely on the MK IX/01 primary phaser schematic to arrive at his theory, and did not quote the script reference "Constitution Class Starship" itself (which should have been a welcome aid and a better "bridge" than just to suggest that the "01" of "MK IX/01" hinted the Enterprise's registry "1701"...).

Because he didn't, it appears that - just as feek61 summarized - he became aware that in the dialogue Khan mentions that he has read several manuals on several starships and therefore the manual of the Constitution Class would just have been one of these.
  • Khan was either interested in finding the weak spots of other starships ("The exhaust port is ray-shielded and only two meters wide. You'll have to use photon torpedos...") to plan his new conquest of the universe aboard the Enterprise. Thus starships of the Constitution Class might have been starships he'd expect to encounter and study their strength (i.e. primary phaser...!)
  • Or - as I had suggested before - he was reading up on the technological evolution towards the Enterprise to truly understand and grasp the working of the ship. And a Constitution Class Starship was an older starship design on the road towards Enterprise ("MK 9/01" or NCC-901 for those who follow Jein's reasoning)
  • And then, there's Scotty's technical journal in "The Trouble With Tribbles". Either he's taking a voluntary history lesson (older starship design) or he's looking at a different phaser design of the Constitution Class. Why should he be looking at the primary phaser of the ship he's on? It's like staring at a centerfold, while the real thing is down near Deck 11 waiting to be examined by Scotty...
I agree, this is a rather trivial and redundant issue in the bigger picture that is Star Trek, but obviously I have a soft spot for it.

And of course, everybody is entitled to believe that either/and Matt Jefferies's production sketch is inconclusive, that the producers didn't mean "Enterprise Class" (The Making of ST), "MK IX/01" refers to the type of starship and not to the type of phaser, retroactive continuity has fixed/overwritten the issue (TNG / ENT / TNG-R) and whatever else may keep the TOS Enterprise anchored in this "Constitution Class".

In our particular dialogue you revealed that you filtered out / ignored important dialogue part (several starships, several manuals), apparently because it wasn't compatible with your agenda (i.e. that the original "Space Seed" script is evidence that the Enterprise was intended to be a member of the Constitution Class).

The other Greg did the same thing (he quoted from The Making of Star Trek but didn't elaborate for one second why the same passage he quoted from is also the one stating "Enterprise Class").
If there's an issue which jeopardizes a theory, I'd expect it to be mentioned and commented. If it's just ignored the author must have an agenda to propagate his personal belief or theory and can no longer claim he's open-minded and willing to re-evaluate his beliefs (which I do believe is one of the outstanding trademarks of Gene Roddenberry's television series).

Bob
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