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Old April 25 2013, 04:39 PM   #511
Melakon
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
I was asking which episode you consider to be the first Borg Episode?
The Neutral Zone or Q Who?
I think they were still trying to figure out who or what the Borg were by the time of "The Neutral Zone". Apparently the little animated creatures we saw with Remmick were supposed to become the Borg, but the technical difficulties were enough they were turned into humanoids. The scooped out outposts were written while the insectoids were still around.

So I'll have to consider "Q Who" the first Borg episode, as it was the first to mention them by name, but referenced the destroyed outposts retroactively making it become Borg continuity.

Of course if we figure in ENT's "Regeneration", then that might be considered the first Borg episode.
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Old April 25 2013, 04:50 PM   #512
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Those Drones were from the movie First Contact.
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Old April 25 2013, 05:27 PM   #513
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I know they were from First Contact, but due to the time travel aspect, "Regeneration" is chronologically their first in-universe appearance though they remain unidentified.
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Old April 25 2013, 05:56 PM   #514
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Man Archer's record keeping sucks.

Didn't document the Ferengi.
Didn't document the Borg.
Didn't document the Romulans.

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Old April 25 2013, 09:43 PM   #515
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
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Tuvix was not an imminent threat to the ship. The Borg are always a threat (collectively speaking).
So what? That doesn't answer why the Borg are less deserving of survival than Tuvix.
Like I said, the Borg are always a threat. The Collective's entire existence is driven by the threat to assimilate others. It cannot, by definition, be permitted to exist. That's the difference.
They don't assimilate everything, only those of interest to them. Lions are always a threat, too, we don't exterminate them. That is not the point, though. Why are the Borg intrinsically less deserving of survival than Tuvix? Why is separating Seven from the Borg Collective OK, but getting Neelix and Tuvok out of theirs not OK?
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Old April 25 2013, 09:48 PM   #516
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Lions are always a threat, too, we don't exterminate them.
Lions can exist without being a threat. If a lion is left in its natural habitat, it won't harm humans. The Borg are different. The Borg are incapable of being anything other than a threat. They are, in the most literal sense, incapable of DOING anything other than assimilating, stealing and destroying.

Why are the Borg intrinsically less deserving of survival than Tuvix?
Threats must be destroyed. A captain has the near-absolute right to neutralize a threat to ship and crew. If this can be done like it was with Seven and Hugh - separating them from the Collective without killing them - then fine. But when confronted by an entire Cube, the alternative is obvious: destroy it by any means necessary. None of this applies to Tuvix, because he could have existed just fine as a normal crewmember without ever being a threat to anyone.
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Old April 25 2013, 10:00 PM   #517
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Lions are always a threat, too, we don't exterminate them.
Lions can exist without being a threat. If a lion is left in its natural habitat, it won't harm humans. The Borg are different. The Borg are incapable of being anything other than a threat. They are, in the most literal sense, incapable of DOING anything other than assimilating, stealing and destroying.

Why are the Borg intrinsically less deserving of survival than Tuvix?
Threats must be destroyed. A captain has the near-absolute right to neutralize a threat to ship and crew. If this can be done like it was with Seven and Hugh - separating them from the Collective without killing them - then fine. But when confronted by an entire Cube, the alternative is obvious: destroy it by any means necessary. None of this applies to Tuvix, because he could have existed just fine as a normal crewmember without ever being a threat to anyone.
They are not a threat to everything. The Kazon were explicitly stated as not worthy of assimilation. Guy Gardner made a very reasonable case for the Borg to not assimilate everything, which would easily explain why the Federation hasn't been assimilated, or why Janeway's lone ship may well not have been, they are not interesting enough. That still doesn't address the question of why the Borg are intrinsically deserving extinction. Why is it Ok, even laudable, to separate Seven, but not Neelix and Tuvok?
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Old April 25 2013, 10:24 PM   #518
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
They are not a threat to everything. The Kazon were explicitly stated as not worthy of assimilation.

Where as the federation is seeing as they've tried to assimilate it multiple times
Guy Gardner made a very reasonable case for the Borg to not assimilate everything, which would easily explain why the Federation hasn't been assimilated,
Or other reasons like than the federation isn't advanced enough just yet, or the Borg don't want to invest a lot of resources taking and holding territory on the other side of the galaxy just yet and figure they'll get their eventually any way.

or why Janeway's lone ship may well not have been, they are not interesting enough.
Probably becuase they were busy at the time and afterwards the queen was just being nice to Seven

That still doesn't address the question of why the Borg are intrinsically deserving extinction.
The whole attempting to assimilate the federation, just becuase they aren't coming in force doesn't mean they aren't trying.

Why is it Ok, even laudable, to separate Seven,
1) Because otherwise they would have been assimilated, 2) They weren't going to let themselves be assimilated just to give her to the nearest Borg ship, 3) Janeway did say if she wanted to go back to the Borg after trying the individuality thing she would let her, its just that the two times she tried she was being called by her parent's wrecked ship and had kidnapped Tuvok who probably didn't want to be a Borg and was pretty much forced into doing it practically by the Borg Queen holding a gun to Voyager's crew's heads.

but not Neelix and Tuvok?
Simple Neelix and Tuvok had pretty much ceased to exist at that point and as such were pretty dead at the time.
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Old April 25 2013, 11:02 PM   #519
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I don't remember if it was specifically stated in the episode, but I got the impression that the longer Tuvok and Neelix were existing as Tuvix, the odds became less likely they could be recovered. Sort of like the window of opportunity to reverse the procedure was closing.
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Old April 26 2013, 12:23 AM   #520
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Simple Neelix and Tuvok had pretty much ceased to exist at that point and as such were pretty dead at the time.
If they had ceased to exist they would not have been so easily and instantly recovered. Took what, 15 seconds?
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Old April 26 2013, 12:32 AM   #521
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

There was no window.

Tuvix could have made a deal.

"One more month, and then I'll gladly let you murder me."

Remember in the Jaime lee Curtis/Lindsay Lohan Freaky Friday when they tried to switch back into their original bodies by running at each other REALLY fast like angry foot ball players into a violent collision?

That may not have rebuilt Tuvix with the regular Tuvok and Neelix, but what about the Quicksilver Neelix and Tuvok?

...

The problem with my description of a benevolent (Peace Corps) Borg is that that was the TNG Borg. The Borg on Voyager were just a bunch of thug assholes mostly, which is why they kept picking on Voyager. However since they always knew where Voyager was, when ever Janeway said that she had reversed course and hid from the Borg (Which she said they did a lot in Dark Frontier) is hilarious because Voyager was never actually really hiding effectively or at all fro the Borg all the times she thought they were hiding.... Ever played hide and seek with a 3 year old?

Long range transwarp scans from one Cube can map everything in the galaxy and keep track of everything in the galaxy since then can bisect the bastard in a matter of weeks... Just Like Voyager at puny warp speed can scan and chart what's happening a couple weeks in either direction of where it's standing with it's regular subspace scanners because if it couldn't that rickety barge should have been a lot more indecisive.

You know when you want to change the TV channel, but you'd have to stand up, and walk three feet to get the remote, so you say fuck it and just watch whatever the hells on, THAT is why the Borg did not assimilate Voyager.
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Old April 26 2013, 02:08 AM   #522
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I always figured Seven had some sort of homing beacon on her that she didn't know about, and was never detected. The doctor should have done a more thorough search.
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Old April 26 2013, 02:20 AM   #523
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

One, the 29th century Drone, accidentally reactivated his Beacon which Seven and the Doctor had turned off.

Seven uploaded the complete repository of her experiences on Voyager back into the Collective during Dark Frontier, and so did Tuvok.

You would think that because of the wireless interfacing, that Just waking in proximity of another drone or a Cube would cause an electronic handshake where seven dumps everything she has, while receiving a number of updates and patches from the collective.

Seven of Nine would have to have unexpected firewalls and enhanced encryption to keep the Borg out of her thoughts who would surely be confused as to why she is not an open book?

I still laugh about how easily Ransom (and even Starling or Dr Giggles.)reprogrammed the Doctor because the Doctor had NO encryption or even passwords protecting his software.
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Old April 26 2013, 02:30 AM   #524
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
You know when you want to change the TV channel, but you'd have to stand up, and walk three feet to get the remote, so you say fuck it and just watch whatever the hells on, THAT is why the Borg did not assimilate Voyager.
I hate to say this but Guy you are probably more right here than anyone including the Producers.
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Old April 26 2013, 03:51 AM   #525
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post

So what? That doesn't answer why the Borg are less deserving of survival than Tuvix.
Like I said, the Borg are always a threat. The Collective's entire existence is driven by the threat to assimilate others. It cannot, by definition, be permitted to exist. That's the difference.
They don't assimilate everything, only those of interest to them. Lions are always a threat, too, we don't exterminate them. That is not the point, though. Why are the Borg intrinsically less deserving of survival than Tuvix? Why is separating Seven from the Borg Collective OK, but getting Neelix and Tuvok out of theirs not OK?
This thread has been around for a while. Could someone summarize how we got from the moral dilemma of Tuvix to comparing him to the borg? Somebody just give me the highlights?
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