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Old April 25 2013, 04:37 AM   #496
Gov Kodos
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
The Borg are just acting with the will of the collective, so is Tuvix, neither feels the individuals have any say in the matter. Why is taking one apart OK and not the other.
Tuvix was not an imminent threat to the ship. The Borg are always a threat (collectively speaking).
So what? That doesn't answer why the Borg are less deserving of survival than Tuvix.
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Old April 25 2013, 04:59 AM   #497
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Tuvix was an imminent threat to the ship.

He was two bug bites from taking over.

Demote him or kill him, but don't be an asshole and have the bugger believe he's third in line for succession when Tom probably already has orders to mutiny the second it looks like Tuvix is going to sit down in the Captain's chair and call it his.

(Did Tuvok have the same orders to stop Chakotay from assuming command?)
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Old April 25 2013, 08:26 AM   #498
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Tuvix wanted to bang her hard into next week with his hybrid dong and Vulcan superstrength.
This is an example of why I am a fan of your posts.
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Old April 25 2013, 09:21 AM   #499
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

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Now, we might consider someone selfish for not doing so, but I hope no one would ever argue that someone should be *forced* to risk his or her life to save another.
As a comparison, let's look at the choice Captain Picard had in The Enemy. The gravely injured Romulan needed to receive what was essentially a blood transfusion from Worf to survive. Although Worf refused he did state that he would comply if ordered so to do by Captain Picard. The stakes in this situation were not only the life of the Romulan, but also the possible outbreak of a war between the UFP and the RSE. The costs in this situation were ordering Worf to undergo a medical procedure (likely minimally invasive and not painful) by denying him his freedom of choice and potentially causing him psychological damage. Picard risked the life of the Romulan, the lives of the Enterprise crew, and a potential war with the RSE all to preserve the rights of an individual.

If we look at the characters of Tuvok and Neelix (and generically most characters in Starfleet) they had demonstrated their ability to perform acts of self-sacrifice to benefit their friends and crewmates. It is an odd (inconsistent) choice, I believe, to have written Tuvix (who was the sum of Tuvok and Neelix) as a character who was unwilling to make the supreme sacrifice in order to restore his progenitors.

Since UFP society has evolved to the point where being a good person was life's ultimate goal (rather than fame or acquisition of material goods), acting selfish would probably be viewed as one of the more abhorrent of social transgressions. Perhaps it was Tuvix's violation of the fundamental purpose for human existence (self-sacrifice) that Janeway decided he no longer deserved to his rights, including the right to live.

What do you think of the following change to the plot? What if the Tuvix character had been written so that this apparent contradiction between his personality to that of Tuvok and Neelix had not existed? What if, instead, the plot's conflict was not that Tuvix wanted to live and everyone else wanted him dead, but was instead Tuvix was a character who desperately wanted to give up his life to restore Tuvok and Neelix, but the rest of the crew argued and did what they could to prevent his "suicide", because they believed so strongly in his right to exist, despite the circumstances of his creation?

Then the moral dilemma would have been everybody wanting to do the right thing but having the consequence meaning that someone (the group or the individual) had to suffer, rather than everybody having to do the wrong thing (Janeway by killing Tuvix or Tuvix choosing to live). At least this scenario would have allowed the characters to act in a way which was consistent, rather than having to shoehorn in a dilemma.
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Old April 25 2013, 10:07 AM   #500
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

That's the story of Quinn from Deathwish almost,

At this point, you all remember that there was an unmolested copy of Tuvok's personality resting in Lon Suder's personality?

Tuvok inside Lon could have rallied and stamped down the gimp betazoid enough to give his very full, and honestly vocal opinion on Tuvix and what should be done to the OTHER composit man running around with Tuvoks marbles on Voyager.
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Old April 25 2013, 12:11 PM   #501
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
The Borg are just acting with the will of the collective, so is Tuvix, neither feels the individuals have any say in the matter. Why is taking one apart OK and not the other.
Tuvix was not an imminent threat to the ship. The Borg are always a threat (collectively speaking).
So what? That doesn't answer why the Borg are less deserving of survival than Tuvix.
Like I said, the Borg are always a threat. The Collective's entire existence is driven by the threat to assimilate others. It cannot, by definition, be permitted to exist. That's the difference.
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Old April 25 2013, 12:43 PM   #502
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

But what about the baby borgs?
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Old April 25 2013, 12:58 PM   #503
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The collective has been in existence for over 900 years.

They don't expand like a virus.

There's thought and contemplation to their method.

The Borg invite cultures to sign up who are worthy.

Win/win.

They don't want everyone.

If they took everyone, it would be serious diminishing returns for the Borg drafting endless reams of losers and for the new Borg Pledges too who are all signing up to a crappier and still yet crappier definition of the collective for every Pakled wannabe tosser they feel compelled to induct.

Lose/lose.

More importantly.

The Borg assimilate cultures, not individuals.

The Borg would have ignored Voyager completely if Janeway hadn't been such an adversarial and aggressive prick.

Do you want to know why the Borg have not really overcome the universe?

Nothing out there is still truly that startlingly unique.

All these new worlds with new species with the same old technology.

The Borg are not redundant.

It's an inversely proportionate relationship.

For every species they assimilate there's so many more nearly identical races out there which they now don't have to bother with who get a free pass.
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Old April 25 2013, 01:46 PM   #504
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The problem with the Borg is they're like America. If they decide you can be useful to them, they will do everything in their power to get you under their control. There was an interview with one of the writers long ago, where one of the initial ideas for the Borg was as a metaphor for Americans, the ultimate consumers.
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Old April 25 2013, 02:04 PM   #505
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Was that later on, or back from fist principles when they were still insects?
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Old April 25 2013, 02:13 PM   #506
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

It was probably around the time of BOBW, as prior to that the Borg were only interested in technology, not assimilating populations.
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Old April 25 2013, 02:25 PM   #507
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

You're not counting the Neutral Zone?

The Assimilation Cube did not excrete humans and Romulans after lunching on all those outposts.

It's almost like they didn't decide to start assimilating people until they decided if the tech was any good.
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Old April 25 2013, 02:59 PM   #508
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
The Borg would have ignored Voyager completely if Janeway hadn't been such an adversarial and aggressive prick.
I'm prety sure they would have assimilated Voyager the first chance they got. It was a Starfleet vessel with advanced technologies. The crew would not have been seen as individuals, but as "Starfleet" culture.
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Old April 25 2013, 03:16 PM   #509
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
You're not counting the Neutral Zone?
I don't have whatever magazine it was anymore, I just remember them making the Borg=Americans comparison.
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Old April 25 2013, 03:34 PM   #510
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Sorry.

I was asking which episode you consider to be the first Borg Episode?

The Neutral Zone or Q Who?

Atkin, the Borg has assimilated hundreds of Starfleet vessels, and dozens of neutral Zone outposts, & they had downloaded detailed databases and copied the minds and souls of MANY Starfleet Captains.

Been there, done that.

One person is not a civilization, and neither is one Starship.

Do you remember what Janeway's plan was before she teamed up with Borg to stop 8472?

To slink through Borg Space for 10 YEARS and hope that the Collective didn't notice her.

Either I'm right, and slinking is a possibility or Janeway was in some serious denial about how the next decade of her life wasn't going to be spent mostly as a Borg Drone.

The Borg let armed commandos wander through their ships who are up to nary no good.

Have you every tried to pick a fight with a hippy?

Too stoned to give a crap?
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