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Old April 24 2013, 11:57 PM   #481
R. Star
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
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Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Why should Seven be removed from the Collective? Like Tuvix, the Borg are a gestalt of the former individuals. Removing parts of the whole is an assault on the Borg. They are one, and The rights of the Collective should be respected.
There's a minor difference between Tuvix being the result(not the cause) of an accident and the Borg enslaving everyone they can into their hive mind.
So then, the Collective's rights as a sentient entity deserve no respect. Why should an accident allow Tuvix any rights as an individual that the Borg shouldn't have?
Are you kidding? Intent and deed. Tuvix didn't kill Neelix and Tuvok. Tuvix didn't cause the accident. He was the result of it. Regardless of how he came into being, once he did, he was an individual with all the rights of one. The only thing he was guilty of is refusing to sacrifice his live to restore Tuvok and Neelix back to life. Which is his right as a sentient being.

The Borg intend to assimilate everyone into their Collective. The Borg flat out declared freedom and self-determination are irrelevant. If you resist, they'll force you into their Collective. You're not a person, you're an object to be consumed. All the moral difference in the world.
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Old April 25 2013, 12:02 AM   #482
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

From a certain point of view.

We treat animals as objects to be consumed.
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Old April 25 2013, 12:23 AM   #483
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

The Borg are just acting with the will of the collective, so is Tuvix, neither feels the individuals have any say in the matter. Why is taking one apart OK and not the other.
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Old April 25 2013, 12:34 AM   #484
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Remember in up the long Ladder when Riker killed his clone because "The universe is only big enough for one Will Riker!"?
And afterwards, he went through the Federation phone book, then tracked down and terminated everyone with his name.
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Old April 25 2013, 12:41 AM   #485
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teacake wrote: View Post
From a certain point of view.

We treat animals as objects to be consumed.
I should hope they treat those animals like objects.

There was some dialogue in Veep Last week...

Julia Louis Dreyfus "And then I have to go eat BBQ pig which those Hillbilly hicks probably took turns fucking fucking before they started cooking it."

Anna Clumski "Oh, no, there's no proof that they took turns."
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Old April 25 2013, 12:54 AM   #486
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teacake wrote: View Post
From a certain point of view.

We treat animals as objects to be consumed.
Humans have stopped enslaving animals for food by TNG's era. At least according to Riker in "Lonely among us".
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Old April 25 2013, 12:55 AM   #487
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

He's cloistered in Starfleet, he has no idea what goes on in the colonies.
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Old April 25 2013, 12:59 AM   #488
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Here is the full quote in "Lonely among us".

Riker: We no longer enslave animals for food purposes.
Antican: But we have seen humans eat meat.
Riker: You’ve seen something as fresh and tasty as meat, but inorganically materialized out of patterns used by our transporters.
Antican: Sickening!
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Old April 25 2013, 01:02 AM   #489
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Riker thought a ship armed to the teeth and crewed with a hierarchy of officers wasn't a military vessel. His observations really aren't worth much.
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Old April 25 2013, 01:16 AM   #490
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dream wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
From a certain point of view.

We treat animals as objects to be consumed.
Humans have stopped enslaving animals for food by TNG's era. At least according to Riker in "Lonely among us".
That's as believable as a quote I read today from some conservative political group in Colorado, which has offices at their secretary of state's old law firm:

". . .we're beyond the time when there are out and out racists."
At issue was a voting flyer, where a photograph including a black woman photoshopped her out with a copy and paste of the white woman standing next to her.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/20...reform_ad.html
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Old April 25 2013, 02:17 AM   #491
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dal Rassak wrote: View Post
they did?! I must've missed that particular episode...(grin)

One word on the original subject, it's incensed me that there was even a debate about what to do with "Tuvix". He wasn't some kind of new life-form, in fact he wasn't even an individual in the true sense.
On what basis do you make this claim?
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Old April 25 2013, 02:19 AM   #492
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
The Borg are just acting with the will of the collective, so is Tuvix, neither feels the individuals have any say in the matter. Why is taking one apart OK and not the other.
Tuvix was not an imminent threat to the ship. The Borg are always a threat (collectively speaking).
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Old April 25 2013, 02:27 AM   #493
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Janeway killed one person to save two. Trading off life is legally always unjustified, it was simply murder. But as it is a nasty dilemma her decision is also understandable.
This shows the problem of no jurisdiction aboard, in the Alpha Quadrant she should have been court-martialed for it.
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Old April 25 2013, 03:11 AM   #494
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Another way to examine the ethical problem is to change the circumstances. Tuvok, Neelix, and Tuvix are all unconscious in a rapidly decompressing cargo bay. Transporters are off-line. Tuvix is furthest away from the door. You can only rescue two in time. Who do you save?
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Old April 25 2013, 04:23 AM   #495
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

What else was in the Cargo bay?

Neelix and Tuvok, Tuvix, or a crate of bananas?

I'm surprised that Gov Kodos hasn't even brought up Gov Kodos in this conversation.
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