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Old April 24 2013, 02:28 PM   #451
Deckerd
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I think you misunderstand the purpose of torture. It isn't to gain information because it almost never works in that respect.
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Old April 24 2013, 03:49 PM   #452
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Not all interrogation is torture and not all torture is interrogation, but there's definitely some honest overlap.
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Old April 24 2013, 04:55 PM   #453
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
^Didn't Janeway commandeer Tuvix's life to get Tuvok and Neelix back? If it was wrong for Tuvix to commandeer their lifes it was also wrong for Janeway to commandeer Tuvix's life? And yes it does matter if he was sentient, under Federation law he should have been afforded the same rights as any other living being. He after all had no say in his creation, you can't blame him simply because he existed.
No, look at it this way, when you return stolen property from a thief to it's original owner, you are not stealing anything.
A thief makes a conscious decision to steal something: there is intent.

Tuvix stole nothing. He was the result of a symbiogenetic process. No intent.
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Old April 24 2013, 05:28 PM   #454
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
In fact IMHO the person most morally wrong was the Doctor, but I will concede that he was very young and probably not fully sentient at that time.
R. Star wrote: View Post
^ Yeah.. that's why people are trying to dehumanize Tuvix in their arguments. Calling him an accident, Brit's statement of "his" so called life, apparently him not having a "title" to live. It's quite standard from a psychological point of view for people to do this to justify the death of someone in their own mind.
No that is a logical reasoning, born from a whole lot of life experience. It's not that people do not care about poor Tuvix, it just that they care more about Tuvok and Neelix. But if you care so much maybe you can volunteer to be an amalgamated person. One thing I know for sure, no one gets my body until I am completely done with it.
Let's see...

You've taken the argument to the extreme in this post. The Doctor is operating as any physician would: that's the oath a physician takes when he becomes a doctor.

And you're saying that his abiding by that code of ethics is because he's "young" and "not fully sentient."

This follows exactly what R.Star is saying: it's to dehumanize Tuvix so that his death doesn't matter.

You are also following those who argued that I'm obviously not a parent because I believe it immoral to kill to save a child, and those who argued that I am immoral because I wouldn't kill another to save my sweetie.

So, I've learned something truly frightening in this thread: there are actually fans on this board who believe that it is perfectly reasonable and moral to kill an innocent person to save someone you love.

That's totally mind-boggling.

ETA: Either that, or you're all simply running out of arguments to justify your belief that St Kathryn of Voyager never makes a mistake or never makes a difficult call that even she might not completely agree with.
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Old April 24 2013, 06:05 PM   #455
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Receiving stolen goods is a crime.

If Tuvix forwarded those stolen gods on a little further into a fertile womb?

Since Tuvok and Neelix had no interest in becoming fathers (again), before they had become rintergrated, would Janeway be able to insist on an abortion of the foetus as the power of atorney holding Tuvok and Neelix's proxy?

Repossession is not a crime.
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Old April 24 2013, 08:48 PM   #456
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

teya wrote: View Post
You are also following those who argued that I'm obviously not a parent because I believe it immoral to kill to save a child, and those who argued that I am immoral because I wouldn't kill another to save my sweetie.

So, I've learned something truly frightening in this thread: there are actually fans on this board who believe that it is perfectly reasonable and moral to kill an innocent person to save someone you love.

That's totally mind-boggling.

ETA: Either that, or you're all simply running out of arguments to justify your belief that St Kathryn of Voyager never makes a mistake or never makes a difficult call that even she might not completely agree with.
No, what is completely mind boggling here is your lack of understanding the basis of this problem, so I will say it loud and clear. Tuvix is not the donor in this case he is the recipient, and according to US law upheld by the Supreme Court you cannot coerce someone into giving up a part of his body. You cannot even harvest organs from a corpse without permission. The autonomy of the individual's body extend past death even.

Tuvix is a thief and therefore isn't entitled to the possession or use of what he has stolen, no matter how he come by it. He was not a thief until that moment when he decided to keep what he found.

Apparently it is ok to dehumanize Tuvok and Neelix, in favor of Tuvix, that is hardly the argument anyway. The argument is who actually owns the property, and while that may seem unsavory to some of you, it is the only fact that can come into play. Bottom line, we are talking about properity. Tuvok and Neelix are entitled to their own bodies, in the same way Kes is entitled to her lung, so yes she could in certain circumstances ask for it back. She contracted to give that lung to Neelix not to Tuvix, and if you change the contract it becomes null and void.
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Old April 24 2013, 09:47 PM   #457
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
teya wrote: View Post
You are also following those who argued that I'm obviously not a parent because I believe it immoral to kill to save a child, and those who argued that I am immoral because I wouldn't kill another to save my sweetie.

So, I've learned something truly frightening in this thread: there are actually fans on this board who believe that it is perfectly reasonable and moral to kill an innocent person to save someone you love.

That's totally mind-boggling.

ETA: Either that, or you're all simply running out of arguments to justify your belief that St Kathryn of Voyager never makes a mistake or never makes a difficult call that even she might not completely agree with.
No, what is completely mind boggling here is your lack of understanding the basis of this problem, so I will say it loud and clear. Tuvix is not the donor in this case he is the recipient, and according to US law upheld by the Supreme Court you cannot coerce someone into giving up a part of his body. You cannot even harvest organs from a corpse without permission. The autonomy of the individual's body extend past death even.

Tuvix is a thief and therefore isn't entitled to the possession or use of what he has stolen, no matter how he come by it. He was not a thief until that moment when he decided to keep what he found.

Apparently it is ok to dehumanize Tuvok and Neelix, in favor of Tuvix, that is hardly the argument anyway. The argument is who actually owns the property, and while that may seem unsavory to some of you, it is the only fact that can come into play. Bottom line, we are talking about properity. Tuvok and Neelix are entitled to their own bodies, in the same way Kes is entitled to her lung, so yes she could in certain circumstances ask for it back. She contracted to give that lung to Neelix not to Tuvix, and if you change the contract it becomes null and void.
This is the most convoluted logic I've heard in a long, long, long time.

By your reasoning, the folks who donated their son's organs to my sweetie and five other people, could have come back 2 years later and said, "oh, we've decided we don't like that hippie guy who got one of the kidneys, so we're going to take it back."

Sorry. Doesn't work that way.

And *you're* the one missing the entire basis of the episode.

Tuvix is neither a donor nor a recipient.

Tuvix is a sentient being who was created by a process of reproduction called symbiogenesis. He stole nothing. He had no culpability in his own creation. He was the product of 3 parents: Tuvok, Neelix & an alien orchid.

He was recognized by Captain Janeway as sentient. She assigned him to the bridge, so he was obviously competent. She praised him in her logs.

Under Federation law, sentient beings have rights: and the basis of those rights is the right to self-determination.

Contrary to your assertion, the Doctor is absolutely in the right.

Bottom line, we are talking about a living being, not property. And in saying that he is property, you are getting into an ethical morass that I don't think you want to be getting into...
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Old April 24 2013, 09:51 PM   #458
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Taya, prove he is sentient, prove anyone is sentient. You see what you want to see, and it is colored by your experience. What makes you wrong is your instance that everyone believe as you do. And you don't know me, you've never wanted to know me, so keep your assessments of me to your self and stick to the conversation topic. And bottom line the only thing you can consider is property because every other way of looking at this is emotional.
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Old April 24 2013, 10:00 PM   #459
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I'm late to the thread but...

Yes, absolutely the right decision. Tuvix... Kill it! Kill it now!

I never cared for either character separately so together it must assuredly go!
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Old April 24 2013, 10:10 PM   #460
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

I was never good at science, but isn't symbiogenesis a biological process? Tuvix was created through a transporter accident, not biology.
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Old April 24 2013, 10:13 PM   #461
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
Taya, prove he is sentient, prove anyone is sentient. You see what you want to see, and it is colored by your experience. What makes you wrong is your instance that everyone believe as you do. And you don't know me, you've never wanted to know me, so keep your assessments of me to your self and stick to the conversation topic. And bottom line the only thing you can consider is property because every other way of looking at this is emotional.
No, Brit, I'm looking at the episode as an episode of science fiction in which the science is medicine. I'm sorry if this bothers you, but it seems to be an area where I have more professional experience than you do--and I'm simply basing that judgement on your responses. From those responses, I've gathered that you do not have a clear understanding of medical ethics, the Hippocratic oath or the science that was at the basis of the episode. That is not a judgement against you, that is simply an observation.

Contrary to your assertion, the morals of this episode can very easily be argued based on the story as given and StarTrek canon. It does not have to be emotional. Indeed, the folks who made it emotional were those arguing that anyone would kill to save a loved one.

And, no, I'm actually not arguing that everyone think as I do. You are.

I believe a number of pages back it was JanewayRulz who noted Kathryn's difficulty with the decision and how Kate acted that scene to show it. She thought Kathryn did the right thing. I thought her argument was sound and said so.

It's also what I liked about the episode: Kate acted the hell out of it without chewing the scenery. She was at her best conveying Janeway's discomfort with the situation.
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Old April 24 2013, 10:18 PM   #462
teya
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Melakon wrote: View Post
I was never good at science, but isn't symbiogenesis a biological process? Tuvix was created through a transporter accident, not biology.
In the episode, it was explained that the transporter facilitated a biological process.

TUVIX: Sex.
JANEWAY: I beg your pardon?
TUVIX: What I mean to say is, and I apologise for cutting you off, Commander, I think we're on the wrong track. Kes, you said that the flowers you examined contained lysosomal enzymes.
KES: That's right.
TUVIX: According to Tuvok's botanical research, the presence of lysosomal enzymes could be evidence of symbiogenesis.
KES: Symbiogenesis?
JANEWAY: Symbiogenesis is a rare reproductive process. Instead of pollination or mating, symbiogenetic organisms merge with a second species.
TUVIX: Andorian amoeba for instance. They're able to merge with other single-celled organisms to form a third unique species, a hybrid.
KES: Like you.
TUVIX: Exactly.
JANEWAY: It's an interesting idea. But we're talking about microcellular organisms here. I've never heard of symbiogenesis occurring in a species as complex as a humanoid.
TUVIX: Actually Captain, when you think about it, Neelix and Tuvok were broken down to a microcellular level during transport. DNA, protein, all in a state of molecular flux.
KIM: And if the enzymes that cause symbiogenesis interacted with their DNA while they were in the matter stream, it might have caused their patterns to merge.
JANEWAY: Like an Andorian amoeba.
TUVIX: Just like that, Tuvix is born.
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Old April 24 2013, 10:31 PM   #463
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Melakon wrote: View Post
I was never good at science, but isn't symbiogenesis a biological process? Tuvix was created through a transporter accident, not biology.
Voyager's often guilty of taking a scientific term, and subbing it for the word magic in plots.
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Old April 24 2013, 10:48 PM   #464
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
Taya, prove he is sentient, prove anyone is sentient. You see what you want to see, and it is colored by your experience. What makes you wrong is your instance that everyone believe as you do. And you don't know me, you've never wanted to know me, so keep your assessments of me to your self and stick to the conversation topic. And bottom line the only thing you can consider is property because every other way of looking at this is emotional.
Didn't I already cover the legal precident regarding proving sentience? From TNG's "Measure of a Man"

"It sits there looking at me, and I don't know what it is. This case has dealt with metaphysics, with questions best left to saints and philosphers. I am neither competent, nor qualified, to answer those. I've got to make a ruling - to try to speak to the future. Is Data a machine? Yes. Is he the property of Starfleet? No. We've all been dancing around the basic issue: does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have! But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose."

The relevant is in bold.
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Old April 24 2013, 11:00 PM   #465
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
We've all been dancing around the basic issue: does Data have a soul? I don't know that he has. I don't know that I have! But I have got to give him the freedom to explore that question himself. It is the ruling of this court that Lieutenant Commander Data has the freedom to choose."

The relevant is in bold.
Louvois is a trained JAG and Janeway does whatever hell she wants without regards to any laws.

What really bothered me is that Janeway never gave the Doctor more time to find a way to keep Tuvix while bringing back Neelix and Tuvok. What was with the rush? Don't they owe him that before condemning him to death?
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