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Old April 23 2013, 11:37 PM   #436
T'Girl
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Dal Rassak wrote: View Post
Neither of the two seperate selves would have wanted to exist in this particular state, which has to be considered first
Voyager did on occasion engage in multi-episode story arcs.

When did we ever hear of Tuvok and Neelix attempting to recombine themselves "back" into Tuvix in subsequent episodes?

... no-one is being "killed"
Oh, of course no one was being killed. Tuvix was back where he started, existing as two separate beings, one named Tuvok, and another named Neelix.

Neither Tuvok nor Neelix seemed particular surprised when they materialized in sickbay following their restoration. This weighs me in favor of both of them remembering their time as Tuvix.

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Old April 23 2013, 11:50 PM   #437
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

There is something known as ahybrid, where parts of two gentically distict individuals are combine to create a new. So if we create a new plant i.e a wheat planet that can survive in more arid regions. Is that not still a living organism?

So in "Tuvix" we have organism 1 Tuvok and organism 2 Neelix which are combined tocreate a new organsim. True in nature the orginals are generally not lost.

Now the closest case we've seen on ST that might come close is "Measure of a Man"

And on determing if Data was a life form or not we had three criteria

1.>Intellignece
2.>Self-Awareness
3.>Consciouness (aka a Soul)

Well Tuvix was definatly Intelligent, he seemed self-aware as for the 3rd point just as in the case with Data it can't be proven. But Data was at least granted the right to explore that possibility.
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Old April 24 2013, 12:13 AM   #438
Brit
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
There is something known as ahybrid, where parts of two gentically distict individuals are combine to create a new. So if we create a new plant i.e a wheat planet that can survive in more arid regions. Is that not still a living organism?

So in "Tuvix" we have organism 1 Tuvok and organism 2 Neelix which are combined tocreate a new organsim. True in nature the orginals are generally not lost.

Now the closest case we've seen on ST that might come close is "Measure of a Man"

And on determing if Data was a life form or not we had three criteria

1.>Intellignece
2.>Self-Awareness
3.>Consciouness (aka a Soul)

Well Tuvix was definatly Intelligent, he seemed self-aware as for the 3rd point just as in the case with Data it can't be proven. But Data was at least granted the right to explore that possibility.
This isn't the same, Data is an individual on his own. Created yes, but two other people didn't have to give up their lives for him to exist.
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Old April 24 2013, 12:37 AM   #439
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

So there's no possibility that data's fuel cell is powered by human eyes?

Data has the souls/memories of the entire colony he was "born" on in side his brain.

Sure them all dying is something that just happened, and they barely survived the extraction process like some of us barely survive blowing our noses.

From Silicone Avatar.
MARR: I'd heard that you'd been programmed with the experiences of the colonists, but frankly I find it hard to believe. Bridge.
DATA: It is true, Doctor. The contents of their logs and journals were transferred into my memory cells. The man who created me also experimented with scanning the synaptic patterns of the colonists' temporal lobes and programming them into my neural nets.
MARR: You possess their thoughts?
DATA: To some degree. Doctor Soong hoped to provide me with an amalgam of the colonists' memories.
MARR: Interesting.
Without the 150 colonists donating their minds to the Data experiment, he would not have become a real boy... And how do we know that these lives were freely donated, when it's just as likely that Soong raped his friends while they slept or leveraged them with some kind of blackmail, or even "paid" for some of the colonists minds in so that data's birth was the result of prostitution.

They might have been happy that they made data, but if these colonists who also most probably built up Lore's soul too had survived, they would have damn well asked for their souls back from that murderous asshole.
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Old April 24 2013, 03:18 AM   #440
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Brit wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
There is something known as ahybrid, where parts of two gentically distict individuals are combine to create a new. So if we create a new plant i.e a wheat planet that can survive in more arid regions. Is that not still a living organism?

So in "Tuvix" we have organism 1 Tuvok and organism 2 Neelix which are combined tocreate a new organsim. True in nature the orginals are generally not lost.

Now the closest case we've seen on ST that might come close is "Measure of a Man"

And on determing if Data was a life form or not we had three criteria

1.>Intellignece
2.>Self-Awareness
3.>Consciouness (aka a Soul)

Well Tuvix was definatly Intelligent, he seemed self-aware as for the 3rd point just as in the case with Data it can't be proven. But Data was at least granted the right to explore that possibility.
This isn't the same, Data is an individual on his own. Created yes, but two other people didn't have to give up their lives for him to exist.
Tuvix didn't cause the accident. He was the result of it. He meets the criteria to be an individual... the same ones Data did you admit... but just because he refused to sacrifice himself for the benefit of two others, you'd deny him his life? I just don't think in a moral society, any authority should be able to take an innocent life against their will regardless of the circumstances.
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Old April 24 2013, 03:37 AM   #441
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

R. Star wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
There is something known as ahybrid, where parts of two gentically distict individuals are combine to create a new. So if we create a new plant i.e a wheat planet that can survive in more arid regions. Is that not still a living organism?

So in "Tuvix" we have organism 1 Tuvok and organism 2 Neelix which are combined tocreate a new organsim. True in nature the orginals are generally not lost.

Now the closest case we've seen on ST that might come close is "Measure of a Man"

And on determing if Data was a life form or not we had three criteria

1.>Intellignece
2.>Self-Awareness
3.>Consciouness (aka a Soul)

Well Tuvix was definatly Intelligent, he seemed self-aware as for the 3rd point just as in the case with Data it can't be proven. But Data was at least granted the right to explore that possibility.
This isn't the same, Data is an individual on his own. Created yes, but two other people didn't have to give up their lives for him to exist.
Tuvix didn't cause the accident. He was the result of it. He meets the criteria to be an individual... the same ones Data did you admit... but just because he refused to sacrifice himself for the benefit of two others, you'd deny him his life? I just don't think in a moral society, any authority should be able to take an innocent life against their will regardless of the circumstances.
It has nothing to do with the cause of the accident and everything to do with who "owns" his own body. I agree that Tuvix didn't cause the accident, but just because the accident happened is not reason enough to commandeer another's life. Tuvok and Neelix had "title" to their own bodies, it doesn't matter if Tuvix was sentient, it doesn't matter that he was an individual or that he had feelings. He had no right to take what wasn't his to begin with. I can and do deny Tuvix "his" so called life because your argument can apply just as easily to Tuvok and Neelix and they have an established prior claim. They too are sentient, individuals and they too have a consciousness.
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Old April 24 2013, 04:56 AM   #442
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

^Didn't Janeway commandeer Tuvix's life to get Tuvok and Neelix back? If it was wrong for Tuvix to commandeer their lifes it was also wrong for Janeway to commandeer Tuvix's life? And yes it does matter if he was sentient, under Federation law he should have been afforded the same rights as any other living being. He after all had no say in his creation, you can't blame him simply because he existed.
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Old April 24 2013, 04:59 AM   #443
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

^ Yeah.. that's why people are trying to dehumanize Tuvix in their arguments. Calling him an accident, Brit's statement of "his" so called life, apparently him not having a "title" to live. It's quite standard from a psychological point of view for people to do this to justify the death of someone in their own mind.
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Old April 24 2013, 05:09 AM   #444
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

By this reasoning, at any point in the series that she felt like it, Kes could have demanded her lung back.

HA!

Even if Tuvix had been allowed to stay unified, Kes could have still demanded her lung back because she had given it to sweet lovable Neelix and not that creepy asshat Tuvix.

It's just a question of how badly Tuvix's lungs would have been mutilated as they were minced through a seive to extract the Ocampan DNA.

Only assholes get caught regifting.

WAIT!

WAIT!

Neelix had an Ocmapan lung grafted onto his body so he would have been still 100 percent Talaxian (Scientific Method, I know.) everywhere else within the parts he was born with... But Tuvix's birth would have consumed that lung on a genetic level to the point afterwards that a fraction of every cell in his body was a little bit Ocampan.

Maybe the reason Kes was revolted by Tuvix was not that he was a dick but becuase he was herself. Tuvix at his core was a shitpoor clone of Kes herself and even as dodgy as it got in Fury where they tried to runaway together, Kes did not want to make love to herself

Princess Priss.
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Old April 24 2013, 07:31 AM   #445
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

MacLeod wrote: View Post
^Didn't Janeway commandeer Tuvix's life to get Tuvok and Neelix back? If it was wrong for Tuvix to commandeer their lifes it was also wrong for Janeway to commandeer Tuvix's life? And yes it does matter if he was sentient, under Federation law he should have been afforded the same rights as any other living being. He after all had no say in his creation, you can't blame him simply because he existed.
No, look at it this way, when you return stolen property from a thief to it's original owner, you are not stealing anything. Tuvix's rights ended when the ability to restore Tuvok and Neelix was perfected. I am not blaming him for anything, I am saying that Tuvok and Neelix's claim to life took precedence over Tuvix's. Your body belongs to you and no one has the right to take it. These were not Tuvix's bodies, they had prior owners named Tuvok and Neelix. In this matter Tuvix has no rights. Again it doesn't matter if he had no say in his creation, that is completely beside the point. His humanity isn't in question, we are talking about bodies that didn't belong to him. Tuvix has no rights that supersede the rights of Tuvok and Neelix. Tuvok and Neelix didn't ask for the accident either, they are just as "human" just as sentient, and they have just as much "soul" as everyone else.

In fact IMHO the person most morally wrong was the Doctor, but I will concede that he was very young and probably not fully sentient at that time.

R. Star wrote: View Post
^ Yeah.. that's why people are trying to dehumanize Tuvix in their arguments. Calling him an accident, Brit's statement of "his" so called life, apparently him not having a "title" to live. It's quite standard from a psychological point of view for people to do this to justify the death of someone in their own mind.
No that is a logical reasoning, born from a whole lot of life experience. It's not that people do not care about poor Tuvix, it just that they care more about Tuvok and Neelix. But if you care so much maybe you can volunteer to be an amalgamated person. One thing I know for sure, no one gets my body until I am completely done with it.
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Old April 24 2013, 08:10 AM   #446
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

If Tuvix had no individual rights, say like when Kally murdered Sharon in BSG, or the interrogation teams on Pegasus were expected to rape the Cylons to keep them down and under heel... I wonder if they would have raped the male Cylons too? because if it's part of the guidebook, since the female Captain was making sure this was happening to a "woman" she once loved, it was totally personal for Admiral Kane, but still it was clinical rape and not recreational rape in theory... It wasn't a very good theory which is Why Heilo and the Tyrol (accidentally) killed the rapist interrogator which started a civil war between Battlestars.

Could anyone have killed Tuvix at any point?

No consequences?

Kes could have shot him.

No trial, no jail.

Back to tilling the airponics bay as if nothing happened, the following day, because nothing happened because Tuvix was nothing.

Shooting Tuvix, is no different from turning off a hologram?

No rights to live means no protection from murderers and everyone is a murderer.

When slavery was en vogue, killing a slave would be a question of vandalizing some-ones property more so than murder, which means that rather than going to jail, you'd have to pay back the cost of the slave just like in a small claims court today, if you take a crow bar to someone's car windshield.

Oh?

If Tuvix had tried to commit suicide would have have had to have gone to trial for the attempted murder of Tuvok and Neelix?
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Old April 24 2013, 08:27 AM   #447
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

When Tuvix realized the cards were going against him, he should have stolen a shuttlecraft and gotten out of there. He didn't help his cause at all, because his position was entirely "Me, me, me, and the hell with whatever the rest of you think!"
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Old April 24 2013, 08:47 AM   #448
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

150 crew, and no one stood up for Tuvix except the Hologram?

I think it's more likely that everyone was too much of a pussy to stand up to Janeway, than that anyone concluded that it was immoral to stand up for Tuvix.
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Old April 24 2013, 11:42 AM   #449
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
If Tuvix had no individual rights, say like when Kally murdered Sharon in BSG, or the interrogation teams on Pegasus were expected to rape the Cylons to keep them down and under heel... I wonder if they would have raped the male Cylons too? because if it's part of the guidebook, since the female Captain was making sure this was happening to a "woman" she once loved, it was totally personal for Admiral Kane, but still it was clinical rape and not recreational rape in theory... It wasn't a very good theory which is Why Heilo and the Tyrol (accidentally) killed the rapist interrogator which started a civil war between Battlestars.
It was torture, in fact. I brought up this very subject many years ago when Hermiod was complaining that the women in BSG were unrealistically strong (the boxing match is a good case in point). I agreed but asked why it was that the cylon women got raped but the men just got blown out airlocks (aside from one torture session which steered clear of the genitalia). He went off in the huff or something.
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Old April 24 2013, 12:46 PM   #450
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Re: Janeway's Decision to Kill Tuvix

From what little I know about modern real world torture, it seems that the Americans these days believe that traditionalists from the middle east view women as so beneath them that it's comparable to rape to become forced to think of their female interrogator as an equal, not that actual preconcepts of equality actual mean anything once the real torture starts.

The problem with damaging the genitals with anything more invasive than blunt trauma is that, you have to pause the interrogation to render medical aid. The inquisitor has to decide before you start how valuable the information your interogatee has that you can skirt the line of killing this person when you just want to lightly damage them while forcing the not completely accurate conclusion that the pain they are feeling is intolerable.

Sodomy is an odd form of torture for man on man. Is it psychological or are you using an oversized phalli which is designed to wreck the anal cavity in a way that a penis never could. A homophobe can be chilled just from the thought of losing their bumginity which is complete weak sauce and may have been a device built into the ethnicity to create gentler potentials of torture. Regardless, sodomy quickly loses it's impact psychologically after certain thresholds have been demolished, and the sphincter quickly becomes receptive to anything smaller than a cucumber, and anything larger will just kill or hospitalize your subject, which is totally counter-productive.

Subjects were being completely broken at Gitmo (a couple years ago, before the press had a hissy fit.) just because the lads in charge were burning copies of the Quran in front of them. Apparently these terrorists would rather betray their cohorts than see another quran be burnt because you know it's more important to keep on gods side than your brothers in arms.

Feminizing a man through rape is childish, when the other tools at a torturous hands dehumanizes them. How can it be worse to be a female than be nothing? Obviously feminizing is a half effort, and maybe even a day in the park where the torturer can get maximum information from an idiot before they might have to become truly monstrous and cut some fingers off?

Cross dressing is not always punishable by death in Abu dhabi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wo...ality_laws.svg

There's an episode of Supernatural where they tied Rick Worthy (Who once played Noah Lessing and a Cyclon who Starbuck murdered without torturing) to a chair because he was the King of the Vampires and hammered rail road spikes through his hands until sang like a canary.

Dudes typecast.
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