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Old April 22 2013, 03:33 PM   #46
Kelthaz
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Star Trek swings way too far towards idealism on the Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism. It's nice to watch something uplifting and hopeful, but 24th century Trek, even DS9, went way too far with it. That's why the Federation is dumb.
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Old April 22 2013, 03:41 PM   #47
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Anwar wrote: View Post
We don't know what the Romulans gave up on their end of the deal. For all we know, it was to further develop those super-powerful plasma torpedoes they used in "Balance of Terror" against the Federation.
Nope becuse season 7 of DS9 had the Bajorans being peeved about the Romulans installing plasma torpedoes on one of their moons.

Interestingly enough the federation did not see a problem with this.
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Old April 22 2013, 05:37 PM   #48
Anwar
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Plasma torpedoes, or the super-duper torpedoes that can annihilate asteroid bases easily?

We don't know if they're the same thing.
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Old April 22 2013, 05:41 PM   #49
Phily B
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Besides, cloaking tech was no longer that useful in the Dominion War since the Dominion can see cloaked ships (and the cloak still means the ship can't use shields or weapons) and if the Dominion can see cloaked ships you can bet the Borg can too.
Guess it depends on what version of the Borg you mean. The TNG Borg who can analyze and adapt or the VOY Borg who can't blow their nose unless they assimilate someone who knows how.
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Old April 23 2013, 12:14 AM   #50
Danger Ace
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Actually, Ron Moore wrote The Pegasus. Although he did write two DS9 episodes to feature Section 31, it was created by Bradley Thompson and David Weddle with input from Ira Steven Behr.
Thank you for taking the time to give credit where credit is due. Sadly I do not have so much of it as to research and attribute every reference. So again, your efforts are much appreciated.

Anwar wrote: View Post
Like I said, we don't know what the Romulans themselves gave up in return. Probably they lost just as much an advantage to their side.
Well, we do know what the Romulans didn't have to give up ... cloaking technology.

We do know the Romulans, without provocation, had used cloaking technology before to enter Federation space in order to destroy several Federation outposts and murder untold numbers of its citizens.

We do know the Romulans and Klingons entered into a loose alliance whereby the Klingons obtained cloaking technology and the Romulans got warp technolgy and ship designs, therefore, of the big 3 the Federation was the only one without a cloaking device.

We also know it prevented the Federation from developing ways of pro-actively being able to detect cloaked ships.

We also know cloaking technology could have non-military applications.

And could we infer that the Federation had lifted that ban on cloak technology because the Federation was using it in Insurrection (I can't recall if that was adressed in the film or they just used it without mention).

So on several levels it was idiotic and dangerous for the Federation to approve such a unliterally binding element.

And, as you say, we don't know if any concessions by the Romulans were made because it was never mentioned, therefore, we cannot infer or give credit that any were.
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Old April 23 2013, 12:20 AM   #51
Gary7
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Diplomacy doesn't always mean making the logical choices. I personally don't agree with the Federation banning cloaking device use, but I understand why they did it. Frankly, condoning it would mean many vessel coming from many different species equipped with it, making it easy for rogue elements to take advantage. Cloaked vessels are extremely difficult to track.

"In universe" I could see Starfleet justifying certain ships having a cloaking device installed, like deep space exploration ships or destroyers equipped to battle the Borg. Imagine having that transphasic cloaking device when going up against a cube? The Borg wouldn't stand a chance. Otherwise, outside of combat those vessels so equipped would have the cloaking device off-line and off the power grid, so there's no chance of accidental use. It would take a few minutes to install though, for emergency purposes.
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Old April 23 2013, 12:43 AM   #52
horatio83
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Has anybody mentioned the Defiant yet? In the face of a common threat these supposedly uber-evil Romulans are able to actually cooperate with us and allows us to freely use THEIR technology.
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Old April 23 2013, 01:50 AM   #53
Anwar
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Danger Ace wrote: View Post

Well, we do know what the Romulans didn't have to give up ... cloaking technology.
And? That doesn't mean they gave up NOTHING.

We do know the Romulans, without provocation, had used cloaking technology before to enter Federation space in order to destroy several Federation outposts and murder untold numbers of its citizens.
And the Feds then did "The Enterprise Incident", capturing a cloaking device and a ranking Commander.

We do know the Romulans and Klingons entered into a loose alliance whereby the Klingons obtained cloaking technology and the Romulans got warp technolgy and ship designs, therefore, of the big 3 the Federation was the only one without a cloaking device.
The Romulans already had Warp, just not warships as powerful as Klingon ones. The Klingons got the better end of THAT deal.

We also know it prevented the Federation from developing ways of pro-actively being able to detect cloaked ships.
...No it didn't. They still worked on multiple ways of detecting cloaks (many of which work fine).

We also know cloaking technology could have non-military applications.
And?

So on several levels it was idiotic and dangerous for the Federation to approve such a unliterally binding element.
It wasn't unilateral.

And, as you say, we don't know if any concessions by the Romulans were made because it was never mentioned, therefore, we cannot infer or give credit that any were.
We can't say they gave up nothing either.
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Old April 23 2013, 01:51 AM   #54
R. Star
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

It apparently doesn't include cloaking suits like in Insurrection. Though I guess those could've belonged to the Sona.
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Old April 23 2013, 02:52 AM   #55
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Whether you like it or not, the Federation simply is not as militaristic as modern Western societies.
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Old April 23 2013, 03:03 AM   #56
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Danger Ace wrote: View Post
We do know the Romulans, without provocation, had used cloaking technology before to enter Federation space in order to destroy several Federation outposts and murder untold numbers of its citizens.
And the Feds then did "The Enterprise Incident", capturing a cloaking device and a ranking Commander.
Yeah they probably sent her home after the Enterprise reached the nearest Starbase, as the Romulans might forgive theft of their technology, but kidnapping would probably be something they would be considerably pissed about.
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Old April 23 2013, 03:04 AM   #57
Elias Vaughn
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

I like to fanon that Starfleet didn't get cloaking technology in return for the Romulans not getting matter/antimatter warp technology. That's why they use the artificial singularities.

But that's me.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
The Federation agreed not to use something they wouldn't use anyway ...
Excuse me, but the Defiant on DS9?
The Defiant was specifically stated to be a major departure from normal Federation tactics/ship design, created in response to the Borg threat. The cloaking device would just be another thing they were doing differently.

There were a lot of situation, not involving the Romulans (or even the Klingons) where a Starfleet ship would have found a on board cloaking device useful, and could have saved lives.
Maybe they figured they were saving more lives by not having whatever war the treaty was signed to prevent.
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Old April 23 2013, 03:07 AM   #58
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Sci wrote: View Post
Whether you like it or not, the Federation simply is not as militaristic as modern Western societies.
They don't have to be as militaristic as modern Western societies, they just need the level of militarism that the TOS Federation's Starfleet had.
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Old April 23 2013, 06:53 AM   #59
Anwar
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

TOS took the lazy easy way out and just had their Federation be 60s America in space.

I for one am happy that they didn't just make the Federation your typical Space Military Dictatorship seen so often in Sci-Fi.
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Old April 23 2013, 03:37 PM   #60
C.E. Evans
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Anwar wrote: View Post
TOS took the lazy easy way out and just had their Federation be 60s America in space.

I for one am happy that they didn't just make the Federation your typical Space Military Dictatorship seen so often in Sci-Fi.
Same here.
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