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Old April 22 2013, 03:59 PM   #151
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Lenny, did you see this:

http://culttvman.com/main/?p=3665

I liked it, had a lot of stuf about the models.


BTW, do you have a link to some of the info about this stuff?

That's why it's Treknically called the Achernar configuration of the Enterprise: her final incarnation prior to the Enterprise Class refit... It's not the version presented in the pilots (Constitution); it's not the one presented in the series (Bonhomme Richard); it's a Fusion of these into one...plus a bit of TAS, too!
I'd really like to see it, I've heard about those classes, but I didn't know the Enerprise herself was included in there. I love those kind of things. I know there was a refit to put some phasers on the bottom of the engineering hull and I heard about the main warp drives upgraded the first time but not the second time. It also seems the phasers themselves were upgraded as they fired "bursts" in most of the first season then beams in later seasons, (unless that was just a setting).
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Old April 22 2013, 04:28 PM   #152
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
1. Except your Christopher's attention to detail doesn't take into account Tech Fandom, as in self-contained non-networked warp drive nacelles which he blatantly violates in his last novel...since the Enterprise DID NOT have the same warp drive nacelles from start to finish of her 5-year mission... She was launched with PB-31 nacelles, were replaced with PB-32 nacelles by the time of "Corbomite Maneuver" and between "All Our Yesterdays" and "Beyond The Farthest Star" was upgraded with PB-47 nacelles... So that pretty much shoots the logic behind his story to hell... But your revered writer is thinking that the same warp drive tech aboard 1701-D holds 100% true for 1701...
He was never trying to adhere to Tech Fandom, so it's an unfair measuring stick. Like it or not, Tech Fandom is obsolete. It's influence is still with us today, but many of the details and concepts are no longer compatible with the current version of the Star Trek universe.
2. No, by my definition, FJ's stuff is more official than ever Because It Actually Appeared On Viewscreens in the feature films! Or did you sleep through V'ger's bridge assault and take-over of the ship's computer?
Not my fault that other writers who followed ignored them...
And Christopher's description of the NCC-1701's warp core was based on THIS cutaway which was seen on the USS Defiant NCC-1964 (hull number from the original "Tholian Web" script) in "In a Mirror, Darkly"
It was made by Doug Drexler... you may recognize the name from several of the old Tech Fandom booklets. He made it as a professional, and most notably designed Enterprise NX-01. He also did the CG for the first two New Voyages (now Phase II) fan films.
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Old April 22 2013, 04:38 PM   #153
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
1. Except your Christopher's attention to detail doesn't take into account Tech Fandom, as in self-contained non-networked warp drive nacelles which he blatantly violates in his last novel...since the Enterprise DID NOT have the same warp drive nacelles from start to finish of her 5-year mission... She was launched with PB-31 nacelles, were replaced with PB-32 nacelles by the time of "Corbomite Maneuver" and between "All Our Yesterdays" and "Beyond The Farthest Star" was upgraded with PB-47 nacelles... So that pretty much shoots the logic behind his story to hell... But your revered writer is thinking that the same warp drive tech aboard 1701-D holds 100% true for 1701...
He was never trying to adhere to Tech Fandom, so it's an unfair measuring stick. Like it or not, Tech Fandom is obsolete. It's influence is still with us today, but many of the details and concepts are no longer compatible with the current version of the Star Trek universe.
2. No, by my definition, FJ's stuff is more official than ever Because It Actually Appeared On Viewscreens in the feature films! Or did you sleep through V'ger's bridge assault and take-over of the ship's computer?
Not my fault that other writers who followed ignored them...
And Christopher's description of the NCC-1701's warp core was based on THIS cutaway which was seen on the USS Defiant NCC-1964 (hull number from the original "Tholian Web" script) in "In a Mirror, Darkly"
It was made by Doug Drexler... you may recognize the name from several of the old Tech Fandom booklets. He made it as a professional, and most notably designed Enterprise NX-01. He also did the CG for the first two New Voyages (now Phase II) fan films.
Sorry, IMHO, I don't consider much of anything in E to be valid... It's damaged timeline, product of the Temporal Cold War and/or a pseudo-historical holonovel by Riker...

And NCC-1964 I find highly suspect a registry number...

(Besides, that cutaway came from a game called "Captain's Chair" which I consider Highly debatable and Far from authoritative!)...

Stictly IMHO, of course...
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Old April 22 2013, 05:05 PM   #154
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Marsden wrote: View Post
Lenny, did you see this:

http://culttvman.com/main/?p=3665

I liked it, had a lot of stuf about the models.


BTW, do you have a link to some of the info about this stuff?

That's why it's Treknically called the Achernar configuration of the Enterprise: her final incarnation prior to the Enterprise Class refit... It's not the version presented in the pilots (Constitution); it's not the one presented in the series (Bonhomme Richard); it's a Fusion of these into one...plus a bit of TAS, too!
I'd really like to see it, I've heard about those classes, but I didn't know the Enerprise herself was included in there. I love those kind of things. I know there was a refit to put some phasers on the bottom of the engineering hull and I heard about the main warp drives upgraded the first time but not the second time. It also seems the phasers themselves were upgraded as they fired "bursts" in most of the first season then beams in later seasons, (unless that was just a setting).
Links? Checkout the Star Trek LCARS Database for one http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars...nts-main2.html (though it's far from incomplete, has lots of substandard scans of substandard sources, and even those are incomplete)... The main sources, outside of the Star Fleet Technical Manual by FJ, include the USS Enterprise Heavy Cruiser Evolution Blueprints (I Think they are in that Database link--if they are, GET THEM NOW!), the Federation Reference Series (Incomplete scans in that link, leaving out, among other things Lots and Lots of text pages), Ships of the Star Fleet Volume One (not to be confused with Jackill's or a Jackass calendar, which both borrow the name), and various other blueprint packs and publications like Starship Design, which operate within the same "universe" and use the same methodology, classes, and registries... Generally anything from Star Station Aurora, MastercoM Data Center, and Star Fleet Printing Office; all of which originated in the 1980s...

But let me just go back to the source materials and explain the logical behind it all... If you delve into the Technical Manual and turn to the TO titled Heavy Cruiser Class you'll see many ships listed and their registries... The first block represents the original Constitution class starships (and as previously noted somewhere around here, the Constellation and Republic have oddball registries because they were testbed upgrades of older classes), these original ships are numbered 1700 thru 1711... The next block of ships below it are designated Bonhomme Richard class and represent the next generation of heavy cruisers, an improved Constitution class if you will... They are numbered 1712 thru 1727, and the names come from a memo published in The Making of Star Trek for supplemental starship class names... So they are all basically Bird-picked in that regard... You may recognize some of these names: Excelsior, Saratoga, and Defiance... The first two are the original namesakes which were later lost Prior to the movie era, and their names were carried on by later ships... The "Defiance" is a typo of the Defiant lost in "The Tholian Web"--this is because it was originally named Defiance in TMOST (and Treklore says she was originally to be christened Defiance but later changed to Defiant)...
So what's the USS Defiant doing being listed as a Bonhomme Richard class starship if she's clearly Constitution class? The whole methodology behind Tech Fandom's interpretation is that these Bonhomme Richard class starships represent the series version of the Enterprise, while the Constitution class listed above represents the Enterprise as she appeared in the pilot episodes... That is, the older Constitutions were lated upgraded to the specs of the U.S.S. Bonhomme Richard which represents the production model most seen in TOS, so they are therefore all Constitution Class, from a certain point of view, and the Defiant is the only seen "new build" ship Built that way... The next block of 4 ships were later built as replacements for ships lost in the line of duty (built later, during the movie series as Endeavor class--based upon the rejected Star Trek Phase II series design), which I haven't the time to get into now... The largest block of ships which take up most of the page are the Achernar and Tikopai classes--they take up most of the page because they were initially ordered or projected at the time the TO was generated... The number of Achernar class starships was cut to a dozen odd hulls, while still retaining the first dozen or so names and NCCs, and the Tikopai class was delayed a decade as Star Fleet upgraded their older starships, made cutbacks, and introduced various new designs splitting the upgrade of heavy cruisers into various classes based off of proto-STTMP designs (all this is outlined and illustrated in the above sources)... This development was spawned by the breakthrough in linear warp drive (movie era nacelles!) which made higher speeds possible and required "new technology" upgrades everywhere (some manuals refer to the movie era ships as Class I-B or generally Starship II)... Anyway, to avoid any more confusion, various Constitutions and Bonhomme Richards were further upgraded to match the U.S.S. Achernar (NCC-1732) specs which represented the last great "old tech" upgrade of heavy cruisers which represents the Enterprise in her final TAS incarnation which fills in the remaining 5-year mission... This is Treknically what is represented in FJ's Booklet of General Plans...

So basically, to summarize:
Constitution Class - The Enterprise as she appeared in the pilot episodes... (Bloated bridge module, spired nacelles of the PB-31 design, less detail overall, less lighting, etc.)
Bonhomme Richard Class - The Enterprise as she appeared in the series... (Smaller bridge, more details like viewports, PB-32 nacelles with space warp generator "globes" astern, detailed hangar bay, phasers instead of laser banks, etc.)
Achernar Class - The Enterprise as she appeared in TAS (Post-TOS) up until being upgraded to the Enterprise Class configuration of ST-TMP... (Very visible deflector grid lines, visible phaser emplacements--and 6 of them, upper primary hull torpedo banks, flattened bridge, curved secondary hull, PB-47 engines for higher acceleration, etc)
And they are all a part of the "Constitution Group" so to speak, and can generally all be called Constitution Class by the layman...

I know this can be very confusing, which is why I generally don't like to discuss it much, especially in this day and age when everything is presented very simple, cut and dry... You know: Constitution is every ship in TOS, period, case-closed, with no discussion over the details and how the ships evolved...

So basically 80s fans took FJ's work to the next level... And they're still climbing...

Last edited by Lenny Nurdbol; April 22 2013 at 05:17 PM. Reason: typos and supplements...
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Old April 22 2013, 05:54 PM   #155
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Wow, thanks! I used to love that stuff, actually I still do, I just haven't seen much of it anymore.
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Old April 22 2013, 07:08 PM   #156
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Marsden wrote: View Post
Wow, thanks! I used to love that stuff, actually I still do, I just haven't seen much of it anymore.
It's a matter of one building upon another and another, logically extrapolating and expanding the Treknical mythos...

For instance, the replacement ships for the 4 missing Constitution class cruisers were built as Endeavor class heavy cruisers (based upon taking the U.S.S. Endeavor, NCC-1716 a Bonhomme Richard class aside, and incorporating some unique changes which made her a class leader)... This is represented by the ship with chunky engine nacelle pylons based on the Star Trek Phase II prototype... MK IX/04 (the three previous classes being MK IX/I thru III)...

Sometimes the upgraded Enterprise isn't called an Enterprise class but Constitution (II) which is a misnomer... Originally the U.S.S. Constitution (NCC-1700) was to be the "new technology" lead ship for the movie series but, according to Files of SFC, she was damaged upon encountering the first K'T'Inga class Klingon battlecruiser, so her upgrade was delayed, and the Enterprise was the first ship--otherwise Constitution II would have been a more apt designation for the refitted class... Tech Fandom represents the upgraded U.S.S. Constitution as an early ST-TMP protyotype and several older Constitutions and Bonhomme Richards were refitted to these specs, while others were refitted to the Enterprise class specs... How were they chosen? Oldest ships get upgraded first... Oldest ships being generally represented by the highest NCC number (usually)... Another proto-TMP design is represented by the Tikopai class, finally placed back in production, looking much like the ST-TMP design but with less developed upper and lower sensor sensor domes and modules... All Tikopai class ships (NCC-1800 to 1832) are new build ships considered somwhat "cheaper" than building more of the Enterprise class... In the late 2280's, a new state-of-the-art heavy cruiser design was integrated into the same basic hull of the Enterprise class (since Star Fleet's R&D designers said she couldn't be beat for overall performance) and was to be christened the U.S.S. Levant...but then ST IV occurred and following the early loss of the Enterprise, she was renamed and renumbered 1701-A, and her class changed to Enterprise (II), with the few remaining older Enterprise class ships later authorized to be upgraded to match her specs, and I believe an additional 6 or 7 newbuilds completed this class which lasted to through the start of the next century...

Unfortunately, come circa 1990 when Paramound began to consolidate its hold, Tech Fandom was kind of outlawed... These are the loons who ranted "Unofficial! Unofficial" over and over again, steering fans away (which is why, in fact, the C word was invented in relation to Star Trek)... You could say that everything ever established was wiped clean as though it never existed, since TPTB weren't making money from it... So new tech guys came in, and reinvented everything new from the bottom up, virtually ignoring dozens upon dozens of these blueprints and manuals...

Only a few brave souls like myself fully appreciate the intricacy involved and the flawless logic applied to Star Fleet's shipbuilding scheme... Todays fans just say there's one and only one heavy cruiser class and leave it at that, believing that The Star Trek Encyclopedia holds The sum total of all Trek Knowledge...

Last edited by Lenny Nurdbol; April 22 2013 at 07:10 PM. Reason: Supplemental
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Old April 22 2013, 08:39 PM   #157
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

King Daniel wrote: View Post
It was made by Doug Drexler... you may recognize the name from several of the old Tech Fandom booklets. He made it as a professional, and most notably designed Enterprise NX-01. He also did the CG for the first two New Voyages (now Phase II) fan films.
As I recall, John Eaves did the initial design sketches for NX-01. Doug I think built the first digital model and added all sorts of little details to the exterior. It's still impressive work, as he was originally a makeup artist, lobbied for a transfer to the art department, and learned how to use 3d software on his own time.

And thanks for the cutaway image, I drooled over it in the episode but couldn't get a good screenshot of it.
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Old April 22 2013, 08:56 PM   #158
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Lenny Nurdbol wrote:
Unfortunately, come circa 1990 when Paramound began to consolidate its hold, Tech Fandom was kind of outlawed... These are the loons who ranted "Unofficial! Unofficial" over and over again, steering fans away (which is why, in fact, the C word was invented in relation to Star Trek)... You could say that everything ever established was wiped clean as though it never existed, since TPTB weren't making money from it... So new tech guys came in, and reinvented everything new from the bottom up, virtually ignoring dozens upon dozens of these blueprints and manuals...

...
Thanks, I remember that time. I think it was actually a little earlier when they realized that they could make money off of it again and they stopped all non profit making ventures that didn't pay them. It's their right to make a profit, but if they didn't have the abandonment mentality "Star Trek is dead, do what you want with it" in the early 70s like Gene did when he let FJ make the book in the first place so many people wouldn't have invested so much into it. Or even if they did, it would have been clearly something else, but there was nothing else so the fan project became very real to them. I hate when they throw all of the backstories out they don't like and declare they never happened. That's why Star Trek is an artifact to me. It will not continue, it is done. The owners of the name can use it on new stuff but it isn't it, it's something new using it's name. I love that it happened and I rewatch my 3 seasons and my animated season, but that's the end.
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Old April 23 2013, 01:14 AM   #159
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
I'm not dragging Okuda and Jein in here because they are not the subject of this thread (and I wouldn't dare imply that you are accusing me of being, let's say, anti-Asian, either)...
Why are you bringing race into this? Don't attempt to portray yourself as the victim of an unfair accusation of racism. You know damned well that I didn't accuse you of that. That's a cheap play, and you know it. Shame on you.

But you definitely got Okuda on the brain.

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Post #93 of this thread: Dare criticize someone like Michael "4747 Anime" Okuda and that's heresy.
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Post #114 of this thread: All that crap came in the 90s from Okuda et al...
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Post #135 of this thread: Maybe because Okuda's the head honcho these days in "Treknicaldom" and FJ's contributions make His look rather unremarkable in the art department so it's best to Damn FJ to hell and keep his works well-buried, away from curious prying eyes of the new generation...
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Tell you what, you come up with a Star Fleet Technical manual, get it published, make it a best-seller, make it a milestone publication never before seen anywhere and revered by fans for decades...and then maybe I'll listen to you...
Holy cow! I Didn't Know Your True Identity Was Franz Joseph Schaubelt! It's An Honor To Meet You, Sir! I'm Assuming As Such, Because If, As You Say, Only Franz Joseph Is Worthy Of Being Listened To And That You Demand We Listen To You, Then You Must Be Franz Joseph!
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Old April 23 2013, 01:26 AM   #160
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Masao wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
I'm not dragging Okuda and Jein in here because they are not the subject of this thread (and I wouldn't dare imply that you are accusing me of being, let's say, anti-Asian, either)...
Why are you bringing race into this? Don't attempt to portray yourself as the victim of an unfair accusation of racism. You know damned well that I didn't accuse you of that. That's a cheap play, and you know it. Shame on you.

But you definitely got Okuda on the brain.

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Post #93 of this thread: Dare criticize someone like Michael "4747 Anime" Okuda and that's heresy.


Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Post #135 of this thread: Maybe because Okuda's the head honcho these days in "Treknicaldom" and FJ's contributions make His look rather unremarkable in the art department so it's best to Damn FJ to hell and keep his works well-buried, away from curious prying eyes of the new generation...
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Tell you what, you come up with a Star Fleet Technical manual, get it published, make it a best-seller, make it a milestone publication never before seen anywhere and revered by fans for decades...and then maybe I'll listen to you...
Holy cow! I Didn't Know Your True Identity Was Franz Joseph Schaubelt! It's An Honor To Meet You, Sir! I'm Assuming As Such, Because If, As You Say, Only Franz Joseph Is Worthy Of Being Listened To And That You Demand We Listen To You, Then You Must Be Franz Joseph!
You brought Okuda and Jein up... Coincidentally they, you, and Quite noticeably your Avatar have all these factors in common... Don't make a big thing over it, I'm deliberately trying to avoid specific names since this is, after all, a thread pertaining to FJ... I didn't expect you to hunt down and ransack old messages...
Consequently, the timeframe here is the early to mid 1970s long before your pals...

I'm portraying myself as a victim of unfair...WHAT?

Look: forget it! Don't read my messages and I won't read yours, agreed?
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Old April 23 2013, 01:43 AM   #161
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, come circa 1990 when Paramound began to consolidate its hold, Tech Fandom was kind of outlawed... These are the loons who ranted "Unofficial! Unofficial" over and over again, steering fans away (which is why, in fact, the C word was invented in relation to Star Trek)... You could say that everything ever established was wiped clean as though it never existed, since TPTB weren't making money from it... So new tech guys came in, and reinvented everything new from the bottom up, virtually ignoring dozens upon dozens of these blueprints and manuals...

Only a few brave souls like myself fully appreciate the intricacy involved and the flawless logic applied to Star Fleet's shipbuilding scheme... Todays fans just say there's one and only one heavy cruiser class and leave it at that, believing that The Star Trek Encyclopedia holds The sum total of all Trek Knowledge...
I wish I had your more in-depth knowlege of our rich fan-tech heritage. I've saved a lot of stuff from Cygnus, and it's great, but back when I was at the perfect age to devour and absorb it, I only had FJ and Michael McMaster.

I would think the studio drew lines in the sand for several reasons.

- Fan-sourced tech was created by various unconnected authors and sometimes contradictory.

- Some fan work was rough around the edges, lets say.

- If a studio production acknowledges fan-sourced tech, the artist might be just flattered, or who knows, he might want royalties. And that's a hassle.

- Abiding by fan tech would limit what new scripts could do, whereas new, official tech could be tailored to suit the story needs of whatever new movie or episode was in production.

- Making up new tech might actually have been cheaper than the continuity research and legal clearances needed to use what fans had created.

It was some combination of those things.

Anyway, it's back to head canon, because they can't force you to give up what you love or adopt what you don't.
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Old April 23 2013, 01:58 AM   #162
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
I'm not dragging Okuda and Jein in here because they are not the subject of this thread (and I wouldn't dare imply that you are accusing me of being, let's say, anti-Asian, either)...
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
You brought Okuda and Jein up... Coincidentally they, you, and Quite noticeably your Avatar have all these factors in common... Don't make a big thing over it, I'm deliberately trying to avoid specific names since this is, after all, a thread pertaining to FJ... I didn't expect you to hunt down and ransack old messages...
Consequently, the timeframe here is the early to mid 1970s long before your pals...

I'm portraying myself as a victim of unfair...WHAT?
You implied I accused you of being anti-Asian. If you can't see it, please re-read your post quoted above.

The written record can be unforgiving. Too bad.

Sayonara, Mr. Schnaubelt.
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Old April 23 2013, 02:40 AM   #163
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Lenny,
You do realize that Masao has added more to "treknology" than you have, considering his website, The Starfleet Museum, plus the use of one of his ship designs in a book series?

Like Franz, he truly has gone from fanon to canon.

What have you got?
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Old April 23 2013, 03:40 AM   #164
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

sojourner wrote: View Post
Lenny...

What have you got?
An intermittently functional Enter key?
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Old April 23 2013, 04:08 AM   #165
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited



Masao, my thanks. I had seen this Poser model at Ptrope's ShareCG gallery, and thought it looked really cool, unaware of its origin until now. I like the concept.
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