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Old April 22 2013, 03:34 PM   #91
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: Your own personal continuity

EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post

So, you're upset because the make-believe stuff in Enterprise and ST XI contradicts the make-believe stuff you read in novels and fanzines? Facinating.
No, I'm upset because the make-believe stuff in Enterprise and ST XI contradicts the stuff in TOS, TAS, TNG, DSN, and/or novels and zines...
That's the same thing. You're upset because one set of make-believe stuff contradicts another set if make believe stuff that you like better. The solution is easy, ignore the make-believe stuff you don't like and get over it.
Not when the make-believe stuff is more logically thought-out, plausible, and neatly compiled...AND supported by lots of other spinoff make-believe stuff over the course of decades... It then kind of becomes difficult to dismiss or forget about the make-believe stuff, and you become infuriated by how it was pissed on, often carelessly because TPTB didn't give a damn one way or another... So I pin the mistake on them!

There are many examples to go around too, not just E and XI... Just picking stuff out of the blue: characters running around in ST VI wearing the wrong rank pins...
Are we supposed to believe that they're wearing the wrong uniforms, are being addressed (rankwise) incorrectly, or that Star Fleet instituted a new uniform rank pin designation change? Likewise in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" in relation to "The Cage" and the rest of the series--the Sciences and Services insignias are Swapped! This stuff is documented in tech books... They got it wrong, who are you going to believe? And what of Lt. Tuvok's rank in V, especially during the first season?
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Old April 22 2013, 04:05 PM   #92
BillJ
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Re: Your own personal continuity

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

There are many examples to go around too, not just E and XI... Just picking stuff out of the blue: characters running around in ST VI wearing the wrong rank pins...
Silly me. I like to get lost in the stories, not what costume jewelry the characters are wearing. Like it or not, mistakes happen.
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Old April 22 2013, 04:57 PM   #93
EliyahuQeoni
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Re: Your own personal continuity

BillJ wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

There are many examples to go around too, not just E and XI... Just picking stuff out of the blue: characters running around in ST VI wearing the wrong rank pins...
Silly me. I like to get lost in the stories, not what costume jewelry the characters are wearing. Like it or not, mistakes happen.
Exactly. And yes, it is entertaining to try and rationalize such mistakes and pretend the whole thing is actually consistent. And often there are more than one way to rationalize mistakes/inconsistancies, but that doesn't make one rationalization "wrong" and one "right."

Personally, I'm a huge fan of fan-interpretations and expansions on the Trek canon. But not even all fan works agree with each other. Just like not all canon works agree with each other. In the end its all make believe. There is no wrong answer in make-believe.
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Old April 22 2013, 05:07 PM   #94
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Re: Your own personal continuity

Nobody ever made it off of Talos, and WE ARE THE TALOSIANS....here we are now, entertain us...
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Old April 22 2013, 09:27 PM   #95
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: Your own personal continuity

BillJ wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

There are many examples to go around too, not just E and XI... Just picking stuff out of the blue: characters running around in ST VI wearing the wrong rank pins...
Silly me. I like to get lost in the stories, not what costume jewelry the characters are wearing. Like it or not, mistakes happen.
Just one randomly picked example... You see, after you watch the episodes and movies a million times, the Next time around you Look for these little tidbits...and try to logically explain them if you can...

Take Captain Kirk's old command con chair, the right side panel... What do the buttons do? Well, in "Court Martial" we got a good look at it: initiate a Yellow Alert, initiate a Red Alert, and Ion Pod Jettison (going from top to bottom)... But they're not always used as such, at times the top or bottom button is used as an intercom key... The solution is found in Michael McMaster's bridge blueprints in that there are "overlays" (as on Sulu's helm panel) and the control labels space alongside each button is computer-generated and changes as different functions are called up...
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Old April 22 2013, 09:47 PM   #96
EliyahuQeoni
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Re: Your own personal continuity

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

There are many examples to go around too, not just E and XI... Just picking stuff out of the blue: characters running around in ST VI wearing the wrong rank pins...
Silly me. I like to get lost in the stories, not what costume jewelry the characters are wearing. Like it or not, mistakes happen.
Just one randomly picked example... You see, after you watch the episodes and movies a million times, the Next time around you Look for these little tidbits...and try to logically explain them if you can...
Speak for yourself. I've seen ST VI more times than I can count, but would never have noticed Colonel West had the "wrong" pins if someone hadn't pointed it out to me. When I'm watching a movie/TV show I enjoy I don't generally go looking for nits to pick.
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Old April 22 2013, 10:15 PM   #97
BillJ
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Re: Your own personal continuity

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

You see, after you watch the episodes and movies a million times, the Next time around you Look for these little tidbits...and try to logically explain them if you can...
I've likely seen The Original Series, The Next Generation and the Movie series as many time as you have Lenny. It just doesn't destroy my enjoyment of the stories if something is visually/chronologically out of whack.

Minefield wasn't a shitty episode because it didn't quite gel with Balance of Terror. It was a shitty episode because the story was stupid.
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Old April 22 2013, 10:21 PM   #98
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: Your own personal continuity

BillJ wrote: View Post

Minefield wasn't a shitty episode because it didn't quite gel with Balance of Terror. It was a shitty episode because the story was stupid.
It was a shitty episode for Both reasons...

And the discontinuity was only compounded by later episodes/novels which referenced it and built upon its discontinuity framework... It's one of countless E problems I have and why I can't swallow that series as being in the same exact timeline as TOS I grew up with...
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Old April 22 2013, 10:24 PM   #99
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: Your own personal continuity

EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
Speak for yourself. I've seen ST VI more times than I can count, but would never have noticed Colonel West had the "wrong" pins if someone hadn't pointed it out to me. When I'm watching a movie/TV show I enjoy I don't generally go looking for nits to pick.
That's because you're not a certified Treknical nucase like me... To Really enjoy something, you've got to get down into the details...and rip into them...and stick your head in there...take it all in...eat it up...swallow it...

OK, now that I've got that out of my system, I'm feeling Much better now...

But it really wasn't just Colonel West...
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Old April 22 2013, 10:46 PM   #100
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Your own personal continuity

TiberiusMaximus wrote: View Post
  • Romulans are the original species. Vulcans are Augments. The Vulcan/Romulan Schism was a result of differing views on genetic engineering.The logical faction believed enhancing their species was the logical thing to do, while the other faction viewed it as an abomination. This explains the genetic differences between Vulcans and Romulans, including the great strength possessed by Vulcans.
Stolen.
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Old April 22 2013, 10:55 PM   #101
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: Your own personal continuity

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
TiberiusMaximus wrote: View Post
  • Romulans are the original species. Vulcans are Augments. The Vulcan/Romulan Schism was a result of differing views on genetic engineering.The logical faction believed enhancing their species was the logical thing to do, while the other faction viewed it as an abomination. This explains the genetic differences between Vulcans and Romulans, including the great strength possessed by Vulcans.
Stolen.
Interesting... Interesting... I actually read something similar in an old Best of Trek book... Like the Preservers grafting their DNA into the Vulcan species... We normally perceive Romulans as being "weaker" than Vulcans because, well, they settled on Romulus which has a lower gravity than Vulcan and, of course, they weakened in their long voyage there from Vulcan (losing their telepathic skills among other things)...
So we end up with Captain Kirk in "The Enterprise Incident" Easily taking out a couple guards with a quick punch and slap here and there...
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Old April 22 2013, 11:14 PM   #102
BillJ
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Re: Your own personal continuity

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

But it really wasn't just Colonel West...
Yes, yes. We're all aware the Lieutenant Valeris was wearing Lieutenant Commander pins. That was something left over when the character was still suppose to be Saavik.
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Old April 23 2013, 05:59 AM   #103
lawman
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Re: Your own personal continuity

My reality:

There's a series of timelines superseding one another. In the "true" original Trek timeline...
  • The Eugenics Wars were open warfare, and happened between 1992 and 1996.
  • World War III cost 37 million lives in the early 21st century.
  • Warp engines were discovered by Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri in the mid 21st century, shortly after first contact with Earth.
  • The USS Enterprise NCC-1701 was the first starship of that name. Robert April was its first captain, Chris Pike its second, and James Kirk its third.
  • The events of TOS, TAS, and movies I-IV happened basically as depicted, in the early 23rd century
  • Romulan culture is as described by Diane Duane. Klingon culture is as described by John M. Ford.
Basically, this is Star Trek as one would know it from watching the original series and films, and reading certain key early novels plus Bjo Trimble's Concordance, the Goldsteins' Spaceflight Chronology, and a smattering of other Treknical lit... the state of things up through about 1987.

THEN something happened (maybe some side-effect of the careless time travel in ST IV?), giving us the timeline seen in TNG. (Recall among other things that it was the final episode of TNG's first season that provided the Gregorian date on which Trek timelines have been hung ever since.) In this reality...
  • World War III was much more devastating than it had originally been, costing 600 million lives and leaving parts of Earth in a "post-atomic horror" as late as 2079
  • TOS, TAS, etc. happened roughly 60 years later than they had before
  • Klingons, Romulans, and the entire 24th century are as depicted in TNG and DS9
  • Kirk died as depicted in ST VII [Generations]

THEN we get a new cascade of timeline changes (let's call it a combination of the effects of ST VIII [First Contact] and ST:Voyager's "Future's End"). In this one...
  • The Eugenics Wars were fought covertly
  • World War III was over by 2053
  • Zefram Cochrane was from Earth, and discovered warp technology in 2063, coinciding with humanity's first contact with Vulcans
  • Events of the 2150s were (substantially) as depicted in ST: Enterprise, including the existence of the NX-01, earlier-than-previous contacts with Klingons, Ferengi, and Borg, and somewhat altered history surrounding the Romulan War and the founding of the Federation
  • The 2230s looked as depicted in the early scenes of ST XI (pre-Nero)
  • The events of ST IX [Insurrection] and ST X [Nemesis] took place in the late 2370s

THEN something else happens c. 2380 (I'm really not sure what to pin this on; open to suggestions!) to splinter the timeline into at least two main VARIANTS, including...
  • The reality depicted in the post-Nemesis Trek novels, including (e.g.) the final end of the Borg as depicted in the "Destiny" trilogy and subsequent events
...and, separate and incompatible with that...
  • The reality seen in the framing scenes in ST XI, in which Romulus is destroyed; this also leads into the early 25th century history found in ST Online

...AND of course, as an offshoot of the second of those, we get...
  • The main reality depicted in ST XI, in which (after changes in the 2230s) the Enterprise NCC-1701 is built later than before, but Jim Kirk takes command earlier than before, in 2258, and oh, yeah, the planet Vulcan is destroyed

So by my count that's (at least) six main timelines involved, just to account for the variations familiar to us from "canon" Trek. Unfortunately for me my personal favorite of these is the first, but it's also the most remote from anything being written or produced these days or likely ever to be seen in the future.
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Old April 23 2013, 06:08 AM   #104
Third Nacelle
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Re: Your own personal continuity

^This:

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Old April 23 2013, 06:19 AM   #105
Third Nacelle
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Re: Your own personal continuity

A big part of my personal continuity: Dr. Gillian Taylor would have gone into genetics research and been a major factor in the Eugenics Wars had she been left in the 20th century.
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