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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old April 22 2013, 04:43 AM   #136
Warped9
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

I find the easiest and best way to deal with these issues is to just happily ignore what I don't like and privately accept what I do like.

Re: FJ's material. I loved it when it came out. I freely acknowledge its significance in the development and evolution of this kind of material. I respect and appreciate a lot of what he did, but I also cannot ignore what he got wrong. And he did get stuff wrong. The ship he drew (among other things) is not the same as what was shown onscreen. There are a lot of discrepancies to the point that it seems he might never have referred to the actual 11 footer. Even studying film clips and stills he should have gotten certain things right, but he didn't. I do like his style, his professionalism and a lot of his conceptual thinking, but there are some things he simply got wrong.

One can argue he drew plans for the Constitution, but the set was pitched as plans for the Enterprise and they diverge in a lot of ways.
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Old April 22 2013, 05:02 AM   #137
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

The FJ blueprints are a compilation of not only the different miniatures but of Matt Jefferies drawings... That's why it's Treknically called the Achernar configuration of the Enterprise: her final incarnation prior to the Enterprise Class refit... It's not the version presented in the pilots (Constitution); it's not the one presented in the series (Bonhomme Richard); it's a Fusion of these into one...plus a bit of TAS, too! And that's where some of your discrepancies arise... Other differences include such things as actual Visible phaser banks on the hull which were never present on the models... Gee, I wonder why he did that... Just like FJ's flattened bridge--it was done to reconcile the turbolift shaft placement with the entry alcove region in the bridge Set itself... Otherwise the bridge would have to Sink into Deck 2 virtually eliminating Deck 2 and dropping the primary hull's deck count by one... Consequently, the flatter bridge module, being somewhat wider, allowed for an outer inspection corridor And the secondary exit to the left of the main screen (acknowledged in TAS)... The outer corridor section incidentally is acknowledged in Alan Dean Foster's novelization of "The Slaver Weapon" in Star Trek Log 10... The Bantam novel "Planet of Judgment" also acknowledges the service corridor and gangway down to Deck 2... FJ also justified it by stating that there's no such thing as a command center which has only one entryway...

And there is such a thing as artistic license... Let me give you an example from his Star Fleet Technical Manual... FJ blueprinted various props but wasn't 100% precise because, well, they were Props... Let me explain That! Take for instance Dr. McCoy's medical scanner... He waves it around patients and somehow manages to take a meaningful reading, often spinning the Feinberger round in his hand to gaze at the bottom (or top if you prefer) of the toy... It would be rather dull to just blueprint That, label one on/off button and be done with it... No, FJ took it to the next level and put a small diagnostic scale on one side (somewhat akin to the medical monitor on the diagnostic bed) complete with a "normal range" for life forms, plus he added markings on the other side of the instrument for fine tuning it to different metabolisms... In other words, he made it Plausible and Realistic as an actual medical instrument... The same thing goes for Dr. McCoy's scalpels--they were salt shakers with No markings or "trigger" buttons... FJ put calibration markings on them, a recessed trigger, a safety etc... I think that's a lot more interesting than just blueprinting...shiny salt shakers!

Oh, why do I even Bother... You'd think I was being paid the FJ estate lawyers to back him up! Nobody's listening to me, and those that do have their own opinions firmly in place and aren't going to budge...an angstrom... I'm trying to relay this to people who don't give a tribble's ass about Treknical history nor what I was brought up on and learned in old school Treknical Fandom...
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Old April 22 2013, 05:43 AM   #138
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

^^ It isn't that no one is listening to you but that others have a different perspective. And as far as FJ having to supposedly reconcile things, well I'm sorry but others since have been able to reconcile elements of the ship while still staying true to what was seen onscreen. And I'm not referring to those who worked on the later shows and tried retconning TOS but rather dedicated fans who have often enough done a better job than the "experts."
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Old April 22 2013, 05:50 AM   #139
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Persecution complexes and seeing conspiracies where none exist are signs of a delusional mind.
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Old April 22 2013, 05:54 AM   #140
Maurice
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Why don't you guys just admit that you have this vengeance against FJ which was the whole point of creating a thread about it in the first place...
Easy answer: One does not admit to things that are not true.

There's no persecution going on here. Disagreement does not equal harassment.

I find Franz Josef's work interesting and impressive and simultaneously inconsequential. Those are not contradictory positions.
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Old April 22 2013, 06:02 AM   #141
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

I showed the FJ Technical Manual to a physicist friend at the time during the 70s, and he laughed himself silly at some of the nomenclature on the various instruments like "anabolic protoplaser". He liked Star Trek, but thought some of the terminology ridiculous.
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Old April 22 2013, 07:36 AM   #142
Masao
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
What pisses us first-generation Treknical fans off most...
Please do not presume to speak for me.

I bought The Making of Star Trek back in 1968 when I was 8 years old, traced and redrew the schematics and sketches, and read it until the covers fell off. I bought the FJ plans and the Technical Manual when they first came out and looked through them so many times I had to buy new copies. I watched TAS and drew the ships I saw. I contributed to fanzines and continue to design and write about TOS-era starships to this day. I am a first-generation technical fan.

Greg Jein and Michael Okuda (Okuda!) are also first-generation fans. But I suspect, for some reason, that you don't presume to speak for them.

Gee, I thought Warped9 was a extremist fundamentalist Trekkie whack job (I kid!), but when someone's gone too far for him, then new definitions are needed.

PS: Of course, if you've not been serious, then I must congratulate you on the most entertaining piece of performance art I've seen in many years. Bravo, sir! The nuance and intensity of your portrayal are nothing short of masterful! Five stars! *****

PPS: If you are serious, then stop being so serious! For your own health at least. I don't want to hear that you (or any Trekkie) have popped a cerebral aneurysm hunting and pecking out one of your anti-Okuda screeds (OKUDA!!!). Carpal tunnel syndrome can also result from pounding the keyboard and overusing the shift key, so please be careful and ice down those wrists! (NB: The language of the Trek BBS is not German, so nouns within a sentence are not normally capitalized unless proper.)
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Old April 22 2013, 07:39 AM   #143
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Why don't you guys just admit that you have this vengeance against FJ which was the whole point of creating a thread about it in the first place...
Just to clarify my intention as the original poster, I love FJ and wanted to get a conversation started by laying out a couple of my nitpicks.

I honestly did not realize it would get heated. I just love the topic.

And while "head canon" is a new term to me, I'm a head canon guy. Everyone is the CEO of his own STAR TREK franchise, in his head.
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Old April 22 2013, 08:08 AM   #144
CrazyMatt
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

You can get any hardcore Treknical guru to answer this one, but I'd might as well step in...

Real ships that float on oceans are produced this way with serial registry numbers and, yes, that includes our famous Space Shuttle which takes to space, or is that Took to space...

What pisses us first-generation Treknical fans off most is the amount of respect given to that wall chart in "Court Martial" which consists of nothing more than random numbers of ships apparently being serviced at that moment at Starbase 11...
Sorry to be disagreeable, but...

First, as someone who has served in or in support of the US military (including serving on a US Navy ship twice) and NASA (including supporting 13 shuttle missions) for nearly 30 years, I understand about how the Navy numbers its hulls and NASA numbered their shuttles. Frankly I don't see how those things have anything to do with my original point.

Also, you might want to watch "Court Martial" again, and when you do you'll see the chart contains 10 registry numbers and is titled "STAR SHIP STATUS." It's not titled "Starbase 11 Repair Status." Seems to me that indicates those registry numbers belong to 10 of the 12 starships (amazingly, if you add the Constellation's and Republic's registry numbers to that list you have 12 canonical numbers).

Finally, given a choice of trusting Greg Jein's conjecture vs. Franz Joseph's, there is no choice in my mind. Franz Joseph is just another fan while GJ has genuine Star Trek gravitas. The successors to Roddenberry must agree with me as they've acknowledged his numbering scheme as canon.
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Old April 22 2013, 12:22 PM   #145
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

When FJ numbered his list of starships, as far has he knew no one else had or ever would. He was trying to add some detail and texture for the fans at a time when Roddenberry had specifically told him, "STAR TREK is dead; do whatever you want." Nothing wrong in that.
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Old April 22 2013, 01:10 PM   #146
Green Shirt
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
I honestly did not realize it would get heated.
Many around here have their phasers permanently set on "heated".
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Old April 22 2013, 01:18 PM   #147
Warped9
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

ZapBrannigan wrote: View Post
When FJ numbered his list of starships, as far has he knew no one else had or ever would. He was trying to add some detail and texture for the fans at a time when Roddenberry had specifically told him, "STAR TREK is dead; do whatever you want." Nothing wrong in that.
True enough. And in some respects I prefer FJ's approach to what came later.
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Old April 22 2013, 02:23 PM   #148
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Masao wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
What pisses us first-generation Treknical fans off most...
Please do not presume to speak for me.

Greg Jein and Michael Okuda (Okuda!) are also first-generation fans. But I suspect, for some reason, that you don't presume to speak for them.

Gee, I thought Warped9 was a extremist fundamentalist Trekkie whack job (I kid!), but when someone's gone too far for him, then new definitions are needed.

PS: Of course, if you've not been serious, then I must congratulate you on the most entertaining piece of performance art I've seen in many years. Bravo, sir! The nuance and intensity of your portrayal are nothing short of masterful! Five stars! *****

PPS: If you are serious, then stop being so serious! For your own health at least. I don't want to hear that you (or any Trekkie) have popped a cerebral aneurysm hunting and pecking out one of your anti-Okuda screeds (OKUDA!!!). Carpal tunnel syndrome can also result from pounding the keyboard and overusing the shift key, so please be careful and ice down those wrists! (NB: The language of the Trek BBS is not German, so nouns within a sentence are not normally capitalized unless proper.)
It seems that you're getting more worked up than me when I'm only trying to discuss the subject matter...

In fact, I would almost say Hostile...

I'm not dragging Okuda and Jein in here because they are not the subject of this thread (and I wouldn't dare imply that you are accusing me of being, let's say, anti-Asian, either)...

Tell you what, you come up with a Star Fleet Technical manual, get it published, make it a best-seller, make it a milestone publication never before seen anywhere and revered by fans for decades...and then maybe I'll listen to you...

And, yes, I'm serious...

If you don't like what I have to say, how about you just bypass it and move on to the next message or thread...

P.S. I'll capitalize whatever the hell I want to capitalize, whenver and wherever I want to capitalize it... Maybe you'd like to outlaw trailing triple dots, too? I was told by a certain nameless person not to type them and I laughed and asked why not and I did it anyway and apparently that pisses certain people off here, too...
... ... ...
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Old April 22 2013, 02:48 PM   #149
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
You can get any hardcore Treknical guru to answer this one, but I'd might as well step in...

What pisses us first-generation Treknical fans off most is the amount of respect given to that wall chart in "Court Martial" which consists of nothing more than random numbers of ships apparently being serviced at that moment at Starbase 11...
Sorry to be disagreeable, but...

First, as someone who has served in or in support of the US military (including serving on a US Navy ship twice) and NASA (including supporting 13 shuttle missions) for nearly 30 years, I understand about how the Navy numbers its hulls and NASA numbered their shuttles. Frankly I don't see how those things have anything to do with my original point.

Also, you might want to watch "Court Martial" again, and when you do you'll see the chart contains 10 registry numbers and is titled "STAR SHIP STATUS." It's not titled "Starbase 11 Repair Status." Seems to me that indicates those registry numbers belong to 10 of the 12 starships (amazingly, if you add the Constellation's and Republic's registry numbers to that list you have 12 canonical numbers).

Finally, given a choice of trusting Greg Jein's conjecture vs. Franz Joseph's, there is no choice in my mind. Franz Joseph is just another fan while GJ has genuine Star Trek gravitas. The successors to Roddenberry must agree with me as they've acknowledged his numbering scheme as canon.
Genuine huh... Because he's alive, well, and a name-dropper... OK...

Let's talk "Court Martial"...
Been a while but I recall just numbers listed on a table of "% Completed" and we're supposed to believe that all these ships are Constitution Class because that's all Star Fleet has at it's disposal? More shocking, is that they are ALL undergoing repairs and none are at the 100% mark (again, from memory, maybe 1 or 2?)... How can anyone conclude that these are all Constitution class heavy cruisers? If they are, then Star Fleet is in deep shit! The Federation is undefended!

More logically, how I and other FJ-supporters Interpret that chart, is that these are the vessels currently at Starbase 11 undergoing repairs... They are a wide range of ships, some Constitution class, some just heavy cruisers, others of entirely different classes and types...

Next time I take my car for repairs at Sears or wherever and I see a posted roster of other vehicles undergoing repairs, I don't make the assumption that they're from Sears repair shops nationwide...

The "Court Martial" NCC numbers are all over the place, which should be a clue by itself... Again, I'm talking about how real ship series are built and numbered, but of course if you believe that NCCs are random numbers, you can do anything you like and call them anything you want... You don't even have to invent sequential numbers if you're inventing your own fan starship class... Isn't that convenient for some people...

Regardless, Tech Fandom, Star Fleet Battles, and even Shane Johnson went with FJ's numbers because they are logically sequential and realistic... I also believe that at least one of the model kits in the 70s also advised FJ's numbers...but it's been a long time and I'm old and not as sharp as I used to be...
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Old April 22 2013, 03:58 PM   #150
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Re: Franz Joseph Blueprints Revisited

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

Tell you what, you come up with a Star Fleet Technical manual, get it published, make it a best-seller, make it a milestone publication never before seen anywhere and revered by fans for decades...and then maybe I'll listen to you...

And, yes, I'm serious...
DITTO.
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