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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old April 22 2013, 12:18 PM   #46
sadsquid
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Captrek wrote: View Post
That's unfair. The episode aired six years before the proof.
For a show that loves to bask in how awesome and perfect humanity has become (and even saying we might become god like one day), I find it silly how the writers believed that humanity still wouldn't be able to figure out Fermat's theorem in 300 years. Sure, at the time this episode aired it wasn't solved, but now that there's proof, the use of it excusing poor writing just adds to the laziness of the writing.
Star Trek is a show that examines a lot of 'what if's'. What if the galaxy was full of intelligent life? What if we invented the technology to travel the galaxy and meet/make alliances with those alien races? What if we got past many of the problems we face today, such as war, famine, etc?

Star Trek does paint a positive view of the future (thankfully), but does it try to say that we got past every problem? Absolutely not. Of course, DS9 went a little deeper into some of these problems and shades of grey with Section 31, the Maquis, etc, but it certainly existed in TNG as well. We're not portrayed as perfect beings who solve every problem instantly and never make mistakes. Heck, even Wesley the wonder boy made serious mistakes

Who's to say that every unsolved question/problem we have today will be answered by the 24th century? To say that the writers should have known exactly which problems we will be able to solve in the future (whether technologically, socially, morally or even mathematically), is unrealistic. Science Fiction movies/shows set in the future get things wrong. It just happens.

There are much bigger problems to complain about than the use of the 'unsolved' theorem in this episode.
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Old April 22 2013, 04:12 PM   #47
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

sadsquid wrote: View Post
Star Trek does paint a positive view of the future (thankfully), but does it try to say that we got past every problem? Absolutely not.
Gene thought it should.

Michael Piller wrote:
Roddenberry was adamant that Twenty-Fourth Century man would evolve past the petty emotional turmoil that gets in the way of our happiness today. “In the Twenty-Fourth Century, no one grieves.* Death is accepted as part of life. All the problems of mankind have been solved,” he said. “Earth is a paradise.”
You think Deep Space Nine would have been the series it was if Gene was still around? I doubt that very much.

sadsquid wrote: View Post
To say that the writers should have known exactly which problems we will be able to solve in the future (whether technologically, socially, morally or even mathematically), is unrealistic. Science Fiction movies/shows set in the future get things wrong. It just happens.
I'm not saying the writers should have known that Fermat's theorem would have been solved, I'm just saying that they should have used something that was a bit more relevant to the story at hand. I would have been happy if Picard mentioned how there was an alien species that copied details from an Earth Book and built their entire civilization around it just like in this episode. Picard would than discuss how despite humans and aliens having spent years trying to understand one another, you can't just base your findings on one source alone, like the aliens did with that novel. Picard could have contemplated that if they had just brought a different book, or a whole variety of books that better reflected humanity as a whole, we probably would be friends with the aliens already. That would have been a more interesting discussion than simply brushing everything under the rug and ending with "Like Fermat's theorem, it's a puzzle we may never solve."
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Old April 22 2013, 09:10 PM   #48
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

What if he had Khan's library?

Moby Dick, 2 copies of Paradise Lost, the Inferno and King Lear. That would make an interesting milieu to keep the Colonel.
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Old April 22 2013, 09:16 PM   #49
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

Interesting that such a poor episode gets such a lengthy thread. I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts. I'm with the camp whose enjoyment of this episode is saved by nostalgia. Also, I'd never noticed the similarities to Piece of the Action before now, thanks for that observation.
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Old April 23 2013, 06:13 AM   #50
Gaith
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

To me, though, the whole Fermat's goofiness makes the episode more interesting, not less. Were the writers rash and perhaps foolish in scripting that scene? Sure, but hey, at least they'd heard of the Theorem, and laid the groundwork for cool discussions decades down the line such as this.

The Enterprise writers, on the other hand, clearly thought the height of cultural literacy was knowing Rosemary's Baby was a horror movie.
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Old April 23 2013, 01:59 PM   #51
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
STINGER:
Just wanted to talk about this bit before I finish off with this thread. What do you think actually went on during this scene? Everything about this skeleton doesn't match any of the dialogue.

Riker: Looks like the poor fellow died in his sleep.
Data: The lack of any advanced decomposition is due to the sterile environment.
First, it's pretty silly to conclude that this man died in his sleep since the bed sheets were covering his entire body including his head. His position looks less like he passed away while he was sleeping and more like someone killed him and hurriedly put his body into the bed.

Second, this corpse is WAY passed advanced stage of decomposition since there's nothing fresh or preserved about it. In fact, there's hardly anything left on the skeleton to decompose.

I think the original intent of this scene was going to use an old actor with some light make up to look a bit decomposed and have him in an appropriate sleeping posture in the bed. When it comes to Riker's conclusion that he looked like he died in his sleep, which is the more convincing image?

This?


Or this?


I honestly don't know why nobody caught this. The actors, the director, the writer and even the bloody prop department would all be involved in this. Did they realize too late that they couldn't get an actor to put in the bed and were forced to resort to using a skeleton prop? Well if that was the case, why didn't they change the dialogue to fit the scene? Was there some rule that says you can't change the dialogue even before you start shooting the scene?
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Old April 23 2013, 06:17 PM   #52
Gaith
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

A well-preserved old man would have been far less evocative than the skeleton.

... Again, yes, it's a goofy ep filled with goofy moments; I don't think anyone here's said it's high art. Just ignore it altogether, or relax and enjoy it already!
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Old April 24 2013, 03:07 AM   #53
Marsden
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

Well, the old man in the picture still looks alive. I think he should look like a mummy. Dried out but still intact.

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/cu...y-pictures.htm
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Old April 24 2013, 07:49 PM   #54
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

Gaith wrote: View Post
A well-preserved old man would have been far less evocative than the skeleton.
Than fix the script to reflect the fact that it's a skeleton and not a well preserved body.

Marsden wrote: View Post
Well, the old man in the picture still looks alive. I think he should look like a mummy. Dried out but still intact.
The reason I used picture of an old man sleeping was to sell the fact that he was a bit preserved and gives the impression that he died in his sleep. Even if you were to go with a dried up mummy phase, you would still have to change the dialogue to reflect the stages of decomposition.
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Old April 24 2013, 09:24 PM   #55
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Gaith wrote: View Post
A well-preserved old man would have been far less evocative than the skeleton.
Than fix the script to reflect the fact that it's a skeleton and not a well preserved body.

Marsden wrote: View Post
Well, the old man in the picture still looks alive. I think he should look like a mummy. Dried out but still intact.
The reason I used picture of an old man sleeping was to sell the fact that he was a bit preserved and gives the impression that he died in his sleep. Even if you were to go with a dried up mummy phase, you would still have to change the dialogue to reflect the stages of decomposition.
My mistake, although I thought the existing dialogue would have fit if they borrowed said mummy prop rather than recently unearthed corpse they used.
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Old April 24 2013, 09:27 PM   #56
Gaith
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Gaith wrote: View Post
A well-preserved old man would have been far less evocative than the skeleton.
Than fix the script to reflect the fact that it's a skeleton and not a well preserved body.
No one's arguing that. Now let it go!
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Old April 30 2013, 05:31 AM   #57
J. Allen
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
Gene thought it should.
Well, Gene's dead. The franchise passed on to Rick Berman, and now it's J.J. Abram's universe to mold how he wants it. Just because Gene came up with ideas doesn't automatically make them good ideas:

The idea of no money in the 24th century? Yeah, bad idea, as we saw later series' struggle to shuffle that little issue under the rug or hand wave it away.

Gene wasn't this savant, and he wasn't some immortal visionary. Gene had serious faults, even when envisioning his own production. So "Gene thought it should" means exactly dick, especially some 22 years after his death when incarnations of Trek have changed so drastically.

Michael Piller wrote:
You think Deep Space Nine would have been the series it was if Gene was still around? I doubt that very much.
As cool as Gene was, and for all the good he did, sometimes he had absolutely terrible ideas. DS9 was a terrific series, and it would have happened even if Gene didn't want it to, much as TNG was already changing it's formula even though Gene didn't want it to.

I'm not saying the writers should have known that Fermat's theorem would have been solved, I'm just saying that they should have used something that was a bit more relevant to the story at hand. I would have been happy if Picard mentioned how there was an alien species that copied details from an Earth Book and built their entire civilization around it just like in this episode. Picard would than discuss how despite humans and aliens having spent years trying to understand one another, you can't just base your findings on one source alone, like the aliens did with that novel. Picard could have contemplated that if they had just brought a different book, or a whole variety of books that better reflected humanity as a whole, we probably would be friends with the aliens already. That would have been a more interesting discussion than simply brushing everything under the rug and ending with "Like Fermat's theorem, it's a puzzle we may never solve."
No, that's a good kind of closing, because it left things open for future exploration. Nothing came of the mystery that is the unknown alien species that created the Royale, but that doesn't matter. It was a nice 'question mark' type of ending, something right out of a pulp novel.

The Royale is one of my favorite episodes. It is distinctly Second Season, late 1980s television, and I love it.
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Old April 30 2013, 01:40 PM   #58
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Gene wasn't this savant, and he wasn't some immortal visionary. Gene had serious faults, even when envisioning his own production.
You're preaching to the choir J. Some folks here take Gene's vision of Star Trek more seriously than others. And while I'm grateful that some of Star Trek was able to get away from Gene's poorly thought out visions, especially the "no conflict at all costs" crap amongst our main characters.

J. Allen wrote: View Post
No, that's a good kind of closing, because it left things open for future exploration.
Having an episode set up something that will be explored later on in the series is always fun and promising, but here's the thing. You've got to actually pay off your set up. Despite the many stupid moments in "The Neutral Zone", the episode did set up a mysterious entity that was destroying outposts which would later be revealed to be the Borg in "Q Who", so it's not a complete waste.

"The Royale" on the other hand is a complete waste. It's not an episode that the writers looked back on and said "I can't wait to see where this idea goes", it was a one shot episode that nobody on the writing staff gave a crap about because all they wanted was an episode with our characters inside a Casino. No more and no less.

What makes this story out of place even for TNG is that our characters don't understanding basic things like "push button" elevators or "Room Service". This is a crew who are onboard a ship that has a HOLODECK. A room that recreates situations like The Royale in a more accurate manner and they're acting like they've never experienced such a simulation before.
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Old April 30 2013, 11:38 PM   #59
Captrek
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

Jeyl wrote: View Post
What makes this story out of place even for TNG is that our characters don't understanding basic things like "push button" elevators or "Room Service". This is a crew who are onboard a ship that has a HOLODECK. A room that recreates situations like The Royale in a more accurate manner and they're acting like they've never experienced such a simulation before.
Worf and Riker haven't availed themselves of the holodeck very much so far. They've only used it to hack aliens to pieces. It would have been fun to see them handle this situation in the same manner they handled that one.
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Old May 1 2013, 02:10 AM   #60
Jeyl
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Re: Episode of the Week: 2x12 "The Royale"

Captrek wrote: View Post
Worf and Riker haven't availed themselves of the holodeck very much so far. They've only used it to hack aliens to pieces.


Yep. Just look at how Riker is hacking away at those..... aliens.
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