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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 25 2013, 01:31 PM   #31
Marsden
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Marsden wrote: View Post
I there an easy place to see a pic of the Phase II Enterprise?
A couple links: Forgotten Trek, Forgotten Trek: Phase II Enterprise Page
Thank you.

If you use that model as a guide, it seems like it could be the same ship with completely new nacelles, a new "ring" around the outside of the saucer built on for additional room afterwards for the movie. The "neck" support was also built up and the torpedo area added on.

The phasers are a little harder to explain.

So if they did completely remove the engines and install a new engine system, that seems like the Phase II version, but then they "bulked" it up for TMP.

We don't really know how modular the basic structure is. It could be as simple as taking the edge of the saucer and adding more structural units and reinstalling the edge bulkhead. Same thing for the upright support, split it in the center and add framework to the new sections to make it wider, add more to the back to make it longer.
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Old March 25 2013, 01:42 PM   #32
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Marsden wrote: View Post
I there an easy place to see a pic of the Phase II Enterprise?
Skip the bad acting talky bits and enjoy the fantastic CG launch sequence here:
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Old March 25 2013, 11:50 PM   #33
Shawnster
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

That Phase II launch sequence was awesome.

As already shared, you can compare the TOS vs. Refit Enterprise here:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...tion-refit.htm

Superimposed comparison: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...perimposed.jpg

Visual animation of refit: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...connie-ani.gif

The refit Enterprise overall is longer, the saucer is bigger, the bridge and interior are different and the nacelles are changed.

I saw a picture somewhere showing just how much of the TOS Enterprise could have been left. I can't find the photo now. It wasn't much, just a few decks in the saucer, neck and upper engineering section.

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
They re-imagined the Enterprise, just like they re-imagined the Klingons.
Well, not really.

After all, they took care to show the old ship as well, in that Rec Deck display of images. TOS wasn't supposed to be "remembered differently", or forgotten. Not in that particular respect anyway.

The thing about the TMP ship is that, backstage measurements aside, every part of her is bigger than the "original" TOS counterpart. The saucer could have been created by adding a new rim and bulging out the bulges a bit more; the secondary hull could have received a new surface layer of spaces; the neck could have been strengthened.

Basically, the old ship would fit inside the new one, save for the engines and the secondary hull bow.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/ar...perimposed.jpg

Timo Saloniemi
The pic in the rec room was a cute little nod for fans, but that's about it. Gene Roddenberry himself suggested The Original Series as an inaccurate portrayal of the 23rd century in his novelization of The Motion Picture. And of course, he's on record that the Klingons "always" looked the way they did in TMP and beyond, and that's the way it was until DS9 made a joke of it and Enterprise's fan-wank-tastic final season that said otherwise.

The complete change in look from 60's TV (with randomly blinking coloured squares for buttons) to late 70's movie (with far more realistic interfaces) is subsitution, not a plausible in-universe evolution.
And yet, the TOS Enterprise appears on the Observation Lounge wall displays of the Enterprise D (which Roddenberry signed off on) and E. Plus, the TOS bridge design was presented in Relics. Further, the entire TOS Enterprise interior and exterior appeared in Trials and Tribbilations. The 24th Century must not have gotten the memo that it was just hand-wavey homage to the fans.
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Old March 26 2013, 01:14 AM   #34
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

I visited the USS Constitution right after an extensive restoration in the '90s. I asked one of the officers just how much of the original ship was still here and he said very little. However, he also said she was still the Constitution and where can you see another one like her.
The detaily stuff about the TMP refit is interesting. Like how the transporter room is located in the same place in an axis corridor just off a circular corridor that it was in TOS. Also, when Kirk and Decker are conversing in a corridor intersection, you'll notice over Kirk's shoulder that you can make out the rectangular shape of the old corridor at the intersection. Nice set design to make the new corridor set look like a retrofit.
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Old March 26 2013, 01:22 AM   #35
Flake
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Did anyone say the bowling alley yet because clearly that is the most important part.
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Old March 26 2013, 01:23 AM   #36
Nightowl1701
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

David Shaw, I think, did a study in 2007 comparing the TOS/TMP Enterprises and how one could have flowed into the other. His conclusions (which I've boiled down) were:

"In 1978, there were NO accurate plans [of the TOS Enterprise] on hand when the movie version was being designed...the designers [Andrew Probert & Co.] started with Matt Jefferies' Phase II plans. The Phase II Enterprise was supposed to be a slightly upgraded version of the starship we saw in TOS, [but the designers inadvertently] further exaggerated [basic structural] changes that [Jefferies himself made, and] thought would be unnoticeable in the Phase II Enterprise [since most of the exterior details would be the same].
"So yes, the TMP Enterprise IS a refit/upgrade of the TOS Enterprise - but the production designers didn't START with the Enterprise we saw in TOS. The end result is that when the TMP Enterprise is held up alongside the TOS Enterprise, we see no clear-cut upgrade from one to the other. But when Jefferies' Phase II changes [to the TOS ship's basic lines before anything was 'upgraded'] are taken into account, the upgrade path becomes quite clear."
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Old April 21 2013, 05:06 AM   #37
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

While the new Enterprise Class looks great on screen, I've always bitched about how it was Too different from the old ship... Too many liberties were taken with resizing and reshaping the hulls... Plus when you look at the different deck plans (compare, for instance, FJ's blueprints to, say, Strategic Design's 1701-A Deck Plans) with the addition of airlock lift hatches, the vertical intermix shaft, antimatter pods... It simply would have been more efficient to built a brand new ship from the keel up rather than "deconstruct" the Enterprise... If there's anything of the old ship left, it's got to be the innermost structural supports, because all the outer hull skin is Gone, interior compartments are rebuilt and moved around... The redundancy of the secondary hull having duplicate systems of the primary hull are gone... Instead they opted for consolidating things: instead of multiple little rec rooms scattered about, they have one huge one... Instead of various different cargo holds on different decks, they have one huge cargo facility in the secondary hull, etc...
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Old April 21 2013, 05:35 AM   #38
Nerys Myk
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

In the real world, they used a TOS earpiece in TMP, so yes.
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Old April 21 2013, 05:08 PM   #39
gottacook
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Franklin wrote: View Post
I'd be curious to know if anyone at the time considered saying it was a new and different starship Enterprise.
Well, Decker says to Kirk in TMP, "This is almost an entirely new Enterprise," doesn't he? Thus setting up Kirk's screw-up with the wormhole, etc.

[Of course, I've now committed myself in other recent threads to the idea that, whereas the TMP ship was a refit/rebuilt/essentially new ship with the same name and general layout, the Enterprise of TWoK et seq. was the same ship as in the old TV series but shown at higher resolution for the cinema. This simply has to be the case if the "20 years old" line in TSFS is to make any sense. Assuming for the moment that any continuity exists between TMP and the later movies, an "almost entirely new Enterprise" (as described by its own up-until-then captain, Decker) with a few years on it would never be spoken of as 20 years old - or older, for that matter, as alleged to be the case in earlier versions of the TSFS script. This is just one reason why I say that NO continuity exists and that the filmmakers wanted not to imply any.]

See the Wikipedia entry "Ship of Theseus" (which I just came across while looking for the "grandfather's axe" way of putting this) for further explorations of the topic.
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Old April 22 2013, 03:12 AM   #40
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
In the real world, they used a TOS earpiece in TMP, so yes.
Beat ya!

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...60&postcount=8
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Old April 22 2013, 03:18 AM   #41
Therin of Andor
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

gottacook wrote: View Post
This simply has to be the case if the "20 years old" line in TSFS is to make any sense.
The script originally said "40 years" (as did the script synopsis in the "Starlog" movie mag for ST II).

If we assume the ship also had a massive overhaul somewhere between Pike's command and "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (or "The Corbomite Maneuver"), then 20 years before ST III still works.
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Old April 22 2013, 05:28 AM   #42
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
In the real world, they used a TOS earpiece in TMP, so yes.
Beat ya!

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...60&postcount=8
And I would swear (and I'm probably the only person to point this out or notice it) that when Spock is in sickbay and Dr. Chapel says "now scanning pons area..." she's holding a genuine TOS anabolic protoplaser... So there's another classic prop...
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Old April 22 2013, 06:10 AM   #43
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
In the real world, they used a TOS earpiece in TMP, so yes.
Beat ya!

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?...60&postcount=8
And I would swear (and I'm probably the only person to point this out or notice it) that when Spock is in sickbay and Dr. Chapel says "now scanning pons area..." she's holding a genuine TOS anabolic protoplaser... So there's another classic prop...
Not the first, that I can recall. And yes, she is. Trekcore is our friend: 2nd cap from the left
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Old April 22 2013, 06:29 AM   #44
Therin of Andor
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Cool. The Uhura-prop incident was documented in Susan Sackett's "The Making of ST:TMP" (1980) and was needed Day #1 of principal photography.
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Old May 6 2013, 10:44 AM   #45
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Re: Was ANYTHING retained when the Enterprise was refit?

Well maybe the skeleton of the ship remained, and who knows, they merely put the old parts in the replicators, for recycle in order to creat the new parts for the ship. Therefore, it still IS the same ship mostly, at least at the atomic level. LOL!
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