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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old April 21 2013, 04:54 AM   #406
Christopher
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

The point is, there is no "real" Trek universe where something exists without us knowing about it. It's just a bunch of stuff people make up. The people who made up the show decided that there would not be a lieutenant commander's rank. The people who wrote the earlier ENT novels either didn't notice that quirk of the period or chose to disregard it. So now, in the novel continuity, there is a lieutenant commander's rank. And whether it existed during the series is irrelevant to me because that's not the period I'm writing about.
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Old April 21 2013, 07:57 AM   #407
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

The blurb sounds great.
I have to say Christopher, I'm really looking forward to this. I'm hoping you can do with this what Kirsten Beyer did with Voyager; making Enterprise interesting to me again.
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Old April 21 2013, 10:45 AM   #408
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher wrote: View Post
The point is, there is no "real" Trek universe where something exists without us knowing about it. It's just a bunch of stuff people make up.
Oh come on Christopher - you KNOW no-one on here believes that !

Mage wrote: View Post
The blurb sounds great.
I have to say Christopher, I'm really looking forward to this. I'm hoping you can do with this what Kirsten Beyer did with Voyager; making Enterprise interesting to me again.
That would appear to be why they gave it to Christopher !
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Old April 21 2013, 02:13 PM   #409
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
This synopsis sounds great... really looking forward to this one!

Christopher wrote: View Post
RotF:ACoF begins in September 2162, nearly two years after Archer was last referred to as a captain. So there's been time for these characters to go through more than one change in rank.
I was actually a bit put off that Reed somehow managed to get to Captain already, but when you put it like this, I guess I'm good with it. TBH, I had completely forgotten the lieutenant commander reference from To Brave the Storm that The Wormhole mentioned... I thought last we had seen him, he was still a lieutenant. (I was also under the seemingly incorrect impression that United Earth Starfleet didn't have a lieutenant commander rank...)
To be honest, I don't actually remember the reference either. I was going to write that Lieutenant to Captain in less than five years seemed quite a jump, but then I was thinking "but where have I heared him referred to as 'Commander Reed'?" I then checked Memory Beta which said he was a Lt. Commander in To Brave the Storm.

Christopher wrote: View Post
^On the show, Earth Starfleet didn't have a lieutenant commander rank. Apparently that changed by the time of the novels.
Although, I seem to recall that Reed was going to be a Lt. Commander in the show but was changed to Lieutenant when Dominic Keating was cast because he was "to young to be a Lt. Commander." Yeah, I know, not really relevant, I just point it out as a fun fact.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post

It's a TV show. Nothing exists until someone writes it into an episode.
Yeah, like bathrooms. You going to argue that the ship never had any until we saw one?
Toilets have been seen twice, in the Enterprise's brig in Trek V and in the NX-01's decon chamber in the episode Observer Effect. Bathrooms themselves were mentioned in a Voyager episode (several of them on the ship were "offline" which was especially problematic for the ship's Bolian crew). Not to mention all the various references to "waste extraction" on DS9. Bathrooms might never have been seen, but they do canonically exist due to having been mentioned in dialogue.

Enterprise was on the air four years and in that time we never saw anyone ranked Lt. Commander nor was anyone of that rank mentioned. It's perfectly reasonable to assume such rank does not exist in the United Earth Starfleet.
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Old April 21 2013, 03:28 PM   #410
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

^We saw showers several times in ENT, and we saw a bathtub in TNG: "Genesis."

And whatever the case with the UE Starfleet, there are lieutenant commanders in the UFP Starfleet as of RotF.
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Old April 21 2013, 03:32 PM   #411
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Enterprise was on the air four years and in that time we never saw anyone ranked Lt. Commander nor was anyone of that rank mentioned. It's perfectly reasonable to assume such rank does not exist in the United Earth Starfleet.
It's also perfectly reasonable to assume it DOES exist. To wit:

- Earth Starfleet is a navy. It may not be THE navy, but it is *a* navy.

- We never saw anybody promoted straight from Lieutenant to Commander, did we?

- Like I said, just because we never happened to see anyone of LCDR rank doesn't mean it didn't exist. The very fact that Reed was considered to be given that rank, counts for something, doesn't it?
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Old April 21 2013, 04:37 PM   #412
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

One question will T'Pau appear in this novel? I'm glad T'Pol decided to stay in Starfleet.
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Old April 21 2013, 04:45 PM   #413
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

^See post #379.
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Old April 22 2013, 01:29 AM   #414
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
A question concerning the ranks. Shouldn't Archer be a Commodore? We know from First Flight that rank is used in the 22nd century. Also, as I recall Reed's rank was Lt. Commander in the last Romulan War book, and now he's a Captain? Or is his actual rank still Lt. Commander (or possibly full Commander) but he's called Captain Reed because he now commands a ship?
Keep in mind that the last time we definitely see Archer as a captain in the novels is in November 2160, a few months after the war ends. In the chapter of To Brave the Storm that depicts the Federation's founding ceremony, Archer's rank is not mentioned, nor is anybody else's. (TATV doesn't count since the books have treated it as a historically inaccurate reconstruction.) RotF:ACoF begins in September 2162, nearly two years after Archer was last referred to as a captain. So there's been time for these characters to go through more than one change in rank.

This was intentional. I didn't want to pick up exactly where the previous book left off. I wanted there to be enough of a break between The Romulan War and Rise of the Federation that I could make a fresh start, that this would clearly be the beginning of a new era. So there's been time for a fair amount of change in the characters' lives since the last time you saw them -- not unlike the transition from TOS/TAS to TMP, or from TMP to TWOK. When you pick up this book, you'll find that most of the characters are in new positions -- sometimes just the same job on a different ship, sometimes a more significant change.
Also, from what we've been given to understand, Archer is Freaking Awesome. It honestly would not surprise me if he were promoted directly from Captain to Admiral. (I feel like there is precedent in canon for this kind of jump, but I can't think of it specifically at the moment.)
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Old April 22 2013, 01:32 AM   #415
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

^Kirk was promoted from captain to admiral prior to TMP and again prior to TWOK. But it's generally accepted that he was a rear admiral, which in the US Navy was the equivalent of the commodore rank once that rank was phased out -- i.e. just one step up from captain rather than two.
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Old April 22 2013, 01:52 AM   #416
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Enterprise was on the air four years and in that time we never saw anyone ranked Lt. Commander nor was anyone of that rank mentioned. It's perfectly reasonable to assume such rank does not exist in the United Earth Starfleet.
And if the lieutenant commander rank did exist in UE Starfleet, it would have made way more sense for the writers to give that rank to Tucker, thereby giving T'Pol's assertion in Broken Bow that she outranked Tucker at least *some* defensibility.

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
It's also perfectly reasonable to assume it DOES exist. To wit:

- Earth Starfleet is a navy. It may not be THE navy, but it is *a* navy.
Enterprise is the only Star Trek show where, when the characters claim Starfleet is not military, I can actually believe them. I can easily see UES using some naval ranks as "job grades" without adopting the whole structure. (Of course, the show writers didn't really stick to this, because they ended up using UES ships in a military role all the time, just like in the 23rd & 24th century shows.)

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
- We never saw anybody promoted straight from Lieutenant to Commander, did we?
Did we ever see anyone get promoted to anything? Even the finale, supposedly five years after the previous episode, still had everyone at the same rank!

OK, to be fair... in the First Flight flashbacks, Tucker was a lieutenant, and in the series he was a commander. And in the alt-future from Twilight Lieutenant Reed had been promoted to commander. But since there were significant time gaps between both of these examples, and we never saw either promoted directly, I guess this is inconclusive.

Christopher wrote: View Post
And whatever the case with the UE Starfleet, there are lieutenant commanders in the UFP Starfleet as of RotF.
As it should be.

EDIT follows:

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Kirk was promoted from captain to admiral prior to TMP and again prior to TWOK. But it's generally accepted that he was a rear admiral, which in the US Navy was the equivalent of the commodore rank once that rank was phased out -- i.e. just one step up from captain rather than two.
To be fair, I believe Rear Admiral Lower Half is the USN equivalent of commodore, and based on Kirk's stripes in TMP, he would have been equivalent to USN's Rear Admiral Upper Half, still two steps up from captain.

Personally, I find the whole upper/lower half thing clunky. The Canadian Navy still proudly uses the rank of Commodore.

Last edited by Avro Arrow; April 22 2013 at 02:01 AM. Reason: Respond to a post that was posted while I was typing...
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Old April 22 2013, 03:18 AM   #417
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
Personally, I find the whole upper/lower half thing clunky. The Canadian Navy still proudly uses the rank of Commodore.
Plenty of navies still do. I think the US Navy is one of the few (possibly only one) to have gotten rid of it.
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Old April 22 2013, 03:33 AM   #418
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
(Of course, the show writers didn't really stick to this, because they ended up using UES ships in a military role all the time, just like in the 23rd & 24th century shows.)
But mainly in situations where NX-01 was the only ship that could get there fast enough, so it was more a matter of lacking alternatives.
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Old April 22 2013, 04:35 AM   #419
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Christopher wrote: View Post
But mainly in situations where NX-01 was the only ship that could get there fast enough, so it was more a matter of lacking alternatives.
True, but it still would have been nice to see Earth military ships in an outer-system defense role instead of Starfleet in The Expanse, or in an Earth-orbit defense role instead of... nothing, in Zero Hour.
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Old April 22 2013, 04:36 AM   #420
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Re: Coming July 2013: STAR TREK ENTERPRISE RISE OF THE FEDERATION

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
^Kirk was promoted from captain to admiral prior to TMP and again prior to TWOK. But it's generally accepted that he was a rear admiral, which in the US Navy was the equivalent of the commodore rank once that rank was phased out -- i.e. just one step up from captain rather than two.
To be fair, I believe Rear Admiral Lower Half is the USN equivalent of commodore, and based on Kirk's stripes in TMP, he would have been equivalent to USN's Rear Admiral Upper Half, still two steps up from captain.

Personally, I find the whole upper/lower half thing clunky. The Canadian Navy still proudly uses the rank of Commodore.
As did the UE Starfleet. Forrest was a commodore in "First Flight."

I'm not a fan of phasing out the rank of commodore either. But mostly just because I think it sounds cool.
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