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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old April 21 2013, 06:26 PM   #106
EliyahuQeoni
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Re: What is "canon?"

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

Know why? Just as Abrams isn't a Trek fan, he's really Not a Star Wars fan either--that is, he'll watch the movies but won't touch the books...
So someone isn't "really a fan" if they just enjoy the series in its original medium? Who are you to determine who is "really a fan" of anything?


And all the Fans will Suffer For It!
Well, if the result is anything like Abrams' Star Trek movie, I'll be happy to suffer. My son and I loved it.
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Old April 21 2013, 07:06 PM   #107
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: What is "canon?"

EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post

Know why? Just as Abrams isn't a Trek fan, he's really Not a Star Wars fan either--that is, he'll watch the movies but won't touch the books...
So someone isn't "really a fan" if they just enjoy the series in its original medium? Who are you to determine who is "really a fan" of anything?


And all the Fans will Suffer For It!
Well, if the result is anything like Abrams' Star Trek movie, I'll be happy to suffer. My son and I loved it.
There are many different Levels of Fandom, of course...
If someone with no real grasp of science fiction watches an episode or two of Star Trek for the first time, likes it, s/he can claim to be Fan...

HOWEVER, I would Not want such a...Fan...in the director's chair helming the next Star Trek movie... There are far, Far better choices than that...

And the apologists are out there, using that last, desperate, lame excuse to prop-up bad Star Trek: IDIC...
Except that IDIC can only go So Far...

If we took the script to A New Hope and a couple others in That universe...and changed some names... Luke Skywalker to Jim Kirk, R2 to Spock, Threepio to McCoy, Leia to Uhura, Solo to Sulu, Kenobi to Spock Prime, Chewbacca to Chekov, Darth Maul to Nero... The Death Star to a "Romulan mining ship"...Hoth to Delta Vega... The Wampa ice creature to that...thing...on Delta Vega... JarJar Binks to Scotty's silent pal... The Cantina scene to brat-Kirk's bar hangout... Luke's landspeeder to brat-Kirk's stolen antique car...

OK, let me pour myself a drink now...
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Old April 21 2013, 07:10 PM   #108
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: What is "canon?"

Mysterion wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
What's with the random capitalization and ... ?
Those posts are being brought to you by the letters J and D...
It's actually an old-time tradition employed by members of DASA... I was told to Really be liked by the in-crowd here, to type like that...
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Old April 21 2013, 07:29 PM   #109
tafkats
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Re: What is "canon?"

An oldie but goodie from the past ...

DICK: Say, is this here item cannon?

JANE: Does it fire large iron balls at your enemies?

DICK: Huh? No, I mean is it official Star Trek, you know, cannon.

JANE: You mean canon. The term originally referred to the books of the Bible that were chosen by early Church leaders to refer to those books that would be retained and accepted as those directly inspired by the Word of God. One of the original and still most popular literary uses of the term refers to the original Sherlock Holmes stories by Arthur Conan Doyle, to differentiate them from the thousands of stories about Holmes written by other people. Many Sherlock Holmes fans dislike the imitations and thus read only the canon.

DICK: Whatever. Okay, so is this canon?

JANE: Is it a Star Trek movie or episode produced and released by Paramount (or Desilu, if it's old enough)?

DICK: Why, no, it's a b--

JANE: Well, then, it isn't canon.

DICK: Huh?

JANE: If it isn't an official Star Trek episode or movie, it isn't canon.

DICK: Well, it's a book.

JANE: Right. So it isn't canon, is it?

DICK: It could be.

JANE: Is a book aired on TV or shown in movie theaters?

DICK: No, but--

JANE: Then it isn't canon.

DICK: But this here book was written by someone who used to write for the series.

JANE: So?

DICK: Well, doesn't that make it cannon?

JANE: Canon. Not cannon. Not any kind of artillery or weapon in general. Don't make me go through this again. Or are you one of those Star Track fans?

DICK: Okay, doesn't that make it canon, then?

JANE: The creators of the shows don't regard each others' books as canon. They feel completely free to contradict what Jeri Taylor wrote in her books, for example. So what does that tell you?

DICK: I don't know.

JANE: It tells you that the books aren't canon, no matter who writes them. Because the books are not TV episodes or movies.

DICK: I don't understand. My dog Spot told me that Attack of the Clones had forty different references to a children's book from 1984 about Ewoks, because in Star Wars everything is canon. Even the Happy Meal boxes.

JANE: Is Star Trek part of Star Wars?

DICK: No.

JANE: Is Star Trek related to Star Wars in any way?

DICK: No.

JANE: Does it make sense to compare ten hours of filmed story with five or six hundred hours of filmed story?

DICK: Well, I dunno, not really.

JANE: Then what in the Black Hole of Carcosa does Star Wars have to do with this discussion? I'll answer that for you: nothing.

DICK: So this book isn't canon?

JANE: Is it a book?

DICK: Yes...

JANE: Well, then?

DICK: I guess it isn't canon.

JANE: By George, I think he's got it.

DICK: But maybe it could be canon if enough fans think it's good enough to be canon.

RICK BERMAN: Dick, I'm Rick Berman. I run Star Trek. The books aren't canon. Period.

DICK: But what about Gene Roddenberry?

THE GHOST OF GENE RODDENBERRY: Dick, I don't even think some of the movies are canon. And if I was still alive I'd be going on about some of the newer Star Trek TV series not being canon. And you want the books to be canon? Didn't you people get the message from my boy Richard Arnold?

DICK: Yeah, but I can call it canon if I want.

THE GHOST OF NOAH WEBSTER: Words have meanings, my lad, and you seem not to grasp the meaning of that word.

DICK: Huh? Whatever, word nazi. Anyway, I'm a fan. I am the true owner of Star Trek because I keep it alive. I can determine what is canon.

JANE, RICK BERMAN, THE GHOST OF GENE RODDENBERRY, AND THE GHOST OF NOAH WEBSTER: The hell with this.

SOUND EFFECTS: Jane, Rick, Gene, and Noah apply the Steel-Toed Doc Martens of Correction.
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Old April 21 2013, 07:29 PM   #110
Greg Cox
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Re: What is "canon?"

You know, I'm willing to bet that Nicholas Meyer was not well-versed in Trek novels when he worked on movies #'s 2, 4, and 6. Ditto Harve Bennet and Robert Wise.

You don't have to be a Fan with a capital F to make good Trek. And Lord knows you don't have to read all the books . . . not even mine!
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Old April 21 2013, 07:39 PM   #111
R. Star
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Re: What is "canon?"

Haha! And that pretty much sums up why I don't take the concept of canon in Trek seriously.
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Old April 22 2013, 01:11 AM   #112
Nightdiamond
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Re: What is "canon?"

One good reason I like to stick with a basic canon is what happens when other version start tampering with it. It loses value.

Like Star Wars, they've gone all over the place.

In the the movie, the Emperor was killed. That was the defining moment, the tyranny was finally over.

But no, later in the comics, he was brought back as a clone.

Luke Skywalker stood as the one who would never turn to the Dark Side. Later, after the movie, in another story he falls to the dark side and serves the resurrected emperor.

Luke was supposed to be the last hope--no--in another story Darth Vader trained another potential Dark Sider years before he first encountered Luke.

Sometimes extended stories and universes tends to mess with a classic good story line.

Trek would be a weird mess if we allowed everything in the book world and elsewhere into it.
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Old April 22 2013, 01:16 AM   #113
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: What is "canon?"

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
One good reason I like to stick with a basic canon is what happens when other version start tampering with it. It loses value.

Sometimes extended stories and universes tends to mess with a classic good story line.

Trek would be a weird mess if we allowed everything in the book world and elsewhere into it.
Yes, it could conceivably drive a fan trying to chronicle the many different novels and manuals and RPGs and...
certifiably...INSANE...

It could...

Yes...it...could...
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Old April 22 2013, 02:48 AM   #114
sojourner
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Re: What is "canon?"

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
What's with the random capitalization and ... ?
Those posts are being brought to you by the letters J and D...
It's actually an old-time tradition employed by members of DASA... I was told to Really be liked by the in-crowd here, to type like that...
What the hell is DASA and are you the only member?
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Baby, you and me were never meant to be, just maybe think of me once in a while...
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Old April 22 2013, 03:55 AM   #115
Dr. Sevrin
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Re: What is "canon?"

To paraphrase Spock, canon is a little tweeting bird, chirping in a meadow. Canon is a wreath of pretty flowers that smell bad.
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Old April 22 2013, 04:14 AM   #116
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: What is "canon?"

sojourner wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post

Those posts are being brought to you by the letters J and D...
It's actually an old-time tradition employed by members of DASA... I was told to Really be liked by the in-crowd here, to type like that...
What the hell is DASA and are you the only member?
Dixon Appreciation Society of America...

The membership count is classified information...
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Old April 22 2013, 04:24 AM   #117
Dr. Sevrin
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Re: What is "canon?"

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
What's with the random capitalization and ... ?
Those posts are being brought to you by the letters J and D...
It's actually an old-time tradition employed by members of DASA... I was told to Really be liked by the in-crowd here, to type like that...
Your friends sure fooled you! There is no in-crowd here. We're all in with the out-crowd.
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Old April 22 2013, 04:42 AM   #118
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: What is "canon?"

Melakon wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post

Those posts are being brought to you by the letters J and D...
It's actually an old-time tradition employed by members of DASA... I was told to Really be liked by the in-crowd here, to type like that...
Your friends sure fooled you! There is no in-crowd here. We're all in with the out-crowd.
In, Out, Up, Down...who cares...

BTW, your avatar is missing a still from "The Way to Eden"...
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Old April 22 2013, 05:01 AM   #119
Dr. Sevrin
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Re: What is "canon?"

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
BTW, your avatar is missing a still from "The Way to Eden"...
That was by intentional omission. Since the handle is Melakon, it seemed best to put him at the end of the cycle. Also, I left out Dr. Sevrin in case someone was already (or would be) using him.

I tried to find a good closeup of Skip from Don Knotts' The Ghost and Mr. Chicken, but no luck.
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Old April 22 2013, 01:32 PM   #120
Trek Survivor
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Re: What is "canon?"

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
Know why? Just as Abrams isn't a Trek fan, he's really Not a Star Wars fan either--that is, he'll watch the movies but won't touch the books...
We're all lucky to have you here to confirm how we rate as true fans...

Seriously, the 'expanded universe' of Star Wars has grown into complete rubbish. I truly hope Abrams ignores most/all of it and saves Star Wars in the way that he transformed Trek fandom - for the better!
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