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Old April 21 2013, 06:55 PM   #31
R. Star
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Besides, cloaking tech was no longer that useful in the Dominion War since the Dominion can see cloaked ships (and the cloak still means the ship can't use shields or weapons) and if the Dominion can see cloaked ships you can bet the Borg can too.
Guess it depends on what version of the Borg you mean. The TNG Borg who can analyze and adapt or the VOY Borg who can't blow their nose unless they assimilate someone who knows how.
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Old April 21 2013, 10:14 PM   #32
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Honestly, it was a smart move. War with the Rommies was the last thing the federation needed.
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Old April 21 2013, 10:22 PM   #33
R. Star
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Astroboy wrote: View Post
Honestly, it was a smart move. War with the Rommies was the last thing the federation needed.
In hindsight, the Federation adopting a more militant and less exploratory posture earlier could be a good thing. It took Wolf 359 before the Federation seemed to take defense seriously. A quasi war with the Cardassians would've ended in surrender instead of a peace treaty that only guaranteed the next war. The Federation would've been more ready for the Borg... and the Dominion.
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Old April 21 2013, 10:35 PM   #34
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
The Federation agreed not to use something they wouldn't use anyway ...
Excuse me, but the Defiant on DS9?

There were a lot of situation, not involving the Romulans (or even the Klingons) where a Starfleet ship would have found a on board cloaking device useful, and could have saved lives.

In Tomorrow is Yesterday, simply raising the ship's deflector prevented the Enterprise from being detected on radar. And that just deflectors. Janeway used a type of cloaking device to penetrate a Borg unimatrix.

If a cloaking device can be used during an attack on the Borg, imagine how many lives could have been saved at Wolf359.

Starfleet could have used hundreds (or thousands) of cloaking devices in their long war against the Cardassians, shorting the war, and saving lives. Ending the war with a surrender, not a treaty. None of those border colonies would have gone to the Cardassians.

This would have also put the Federation in a position afterwards to end the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. Something they likely couldn't do with a active war in progress.

Didn't the Romulans loan the Federation the cloaking device that the Defiant used, though it was only supposed to be used in the Gamma Quadrant.
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Old April 21 2013, 10:46 PM   #35
R. Star
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
The Federation agreed not to use something they wouldn't use anyway ...
Excuse me, but the Defiant on DS9?

There were a lot of situation, not involving the Romulans (or even the Klingons) where a Starfleet ship would have found a on board cloaking device useful, and could have saved lives.

In Tomorrow is Yesterday, simply raising the ship's deflector prevented the Enterprise from being detected on radar. And that just deflectors. Janeway used a type of cloaking device to penetrate a Borg unimatrix.

If a cloaking device can be used during an attack on the Borg, imagine how many lives could have been saved at Wolf359.

Starfleet could have used hundreds (or thousands) of cloaking devices in their long war against the Cardassians, shorting the war, and saving lives. Ending the war with a surrender, not a treaty. None of those border colonies would have gone to the Cardassians.

This would have also put the Federation in a position afterwards to end the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. Something they likely couldn't do with a active war in progress.

Didn't the Romulans loan the Federation the cloaking device that the Defiant used, though it was only supposed to be used in the Gamma Quadrant.
That was a one time exception and was in exchange for all Federation intelligence on the Gamma Quadrant so both sides benefited there. Kinda wish they kept the Seska Romulan around T'Rul I think her name was.
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Old April 21 2013, 10:48 PM   #36
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Astroboy wrote: View Post
Honestly, it was a smart move. War with the Rommies was the last thing the federation needed.
In hindsight, the Federation adopting a more militant and less exploratory posture earlier could be a good thing. It took Wolf 359 before the Federation seemed to take defense seriously. A quasi war with the Cardassians would've ended in surrender instead of a peace treaty that only guaranteed the next war. The Federation would've been more ready for the Borg... and the Dominion.
or a war with the rommies could have ended in defeat for the federation and the lose of earth?
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Old April 21 2013, 11:36 PM   #37
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Jared wrote: View Post
Ok so I'm rewatching "Pegasus" from TNG and wondering why...WHY would the Federation agree to a treaty where they aren't allowed to explore the possibility and technology of cloaking? ... Anyone have any ideas?
It never made sense. I think the writers put that into "Pegasus" just to create an instance of drama without regard to the bigger picture as such it created a fixed-point of unilateral idiocy. Thank God for "Deep Space Nine!"

Fortunately, RDM and others introduced Section-31 that kind of retcons the stupidty introduced in "Pegasus" (an otherwise great episode) by allowing those who wish to say the Federation agreed to such pollyannaish terms because they knew it would ultimately be ignored by some covert factions within Starfleet.

Third Nacelle wrote:
This may sound a bit Roddenberrian of me, but I don't think even without the treaty, that cloaking technology is something the Federation would seek anyway. It's dishonest trickery, and that's not how the Federation works.
I strongly disagree. Cloaking technology would have non-military applications such as scientific investigations of pre-warp civilations to name but one. Also, R&D and invention are not always linear processes so to comply with such a stupid provision who knows how many other avenues of research had to be curtailed?

It is one thing to say one won't implement a cloaking device, but it is something terrible to say one won't even pursue tech that would allow themselves to detect a cloaked ship or item, thereby, protect themselves.

Another point to ponder, what if the Pegasus had succeeded and how might that have helped the Federation at Wolf-359? Or how much more advanced would Starfleet ships have been when defending themselves from the Dominion?
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Old April 22 2013, 03:02 AM   #38
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
Fortunately, RDM and others introduced Section-31 that kind of retcons the stupidty introduced in "Pegasus" (an otherwise great episode) by allowing those who wish to say the Federation agreed to such pollyannaish terms because they knew it would ultimately be ignored by some covert factions within Starfleet.
Actually, Ron Moore wrote The Pegasus. Although he did write two DS9 episodes to feature Section 31, it was created by Bradley Thompson and David Weddle with input from Ira Steven Behr.
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Old April 22 2013, 05:38 AM   #39
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

R. Star wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Besides, cloaking tech was no longer that useful in the Dominion War since the Dominion can see cloaked ships (and the cloak still means the ship can't use shields or weapons) and if the Dominion can see cloaked ships you can bet the Borg can too.
Guess it depends on what version of the Borg you mean. The TNG Borg who can analyze and adapt or the VOY Borg who can't blow their nose unless they assimilate someone who knows how.
You know, I still don't get how folks keep thinking the "They don't learn without assimilation" thing didn't apply to the TNG Borg too. Because that's exactly what happened in their TNG appearances. Difference was, the TNG folks acted more scared of them then they really should've been (they knew there was worse than the Borg out there, and they'd faced worse than the Borg).

It never made sense. I think the writers put that into "Pegasus" just to create an instance of drama without regard to the bigger picture as such it created a fixed-point of unilateral idiocy. Thank God for "Deep Space Nine!"

Fortunately, RDM and others introduced Section-31 that kind of retcons the stupidty introduced in "Pegasus" (an otherwise great episode) by allowing those who wish to say the Federation agreed to such pollyannaish terms because they knew it would ultimately be ignored by some covert factions within Starfleet.
Like I said, we don't know what the Romulans themselves gave up in return. Probably they lost just as much an advantage to their side.
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Old April 22 2013, 07:48 AM   #40
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Besides, cloaking tech was no longer that useful in the Dominion War since the Dominion can see cloaked ships (and the cloak still means the ship can't use shields or weapons) and if the Dominion can see cloaked ships you can bet the Borg can too.
Is the stealth technology of today perfect? Of course not - far from it, actually. It still is a MAJOR strategic/tactical advantage.

Cloak is not perfect - but can fool 24th century sensors far better than stealth can fool radar.
The dominion can see through it - but they have to search thoroughly first; and that is in ideal conditions - not in the heat of battle, around some nebula/other sensor-distorting phenomena, etc.

Cloak remains a massive advantage and renouncing it - even the means to see through it - remains suicidally idiotic.

Astroboy wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
Astroboy wrote: View Post
Honestly, it was a smart move. War with the Rommies was the last thing the federation needed.
In hindsight, the Federation adopting a more militant and less exploratory posture earlier could be a good thing. It took Wolf 359 before the Federation seemed to take defense seriously. A quasi war with the Cardassians would've ended in surrender instead of a peace treaty that only guaranteed the next war. The Federation would've been more ready for the Borg... and the Dominion.
or a war with the rommies could have ended in defeat for the federation and the lose of earth?
The treaty of Algeron - which is, practically, appeasement of the romulans* - only ensured that the war will be fought a few decades into the future - AND that the chances the federation has of winning it are substantially smaller.

Whoever signed it condemned his/her grandchildren to bleed and die - and severely increased the chances of slavery under the romulans for the species of the federation. For this, he/she was probably hailed as a hero. Politics.

*Anyone can see (TOS, TNG) that the romulans are violently aggressive towards the federation, having no interest in a lasting peace with it.
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Old April 22 2013, 12:35 PM   #41
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Let's check the fictional history of Trek.

2311 - Treaty of Algeron
2379 - Contrary to the warmongering notion that Romulans are devils who would never ever want peace (why then did they sign treaties with the Feds in the first place?) the events of NEM imply the chance for a real peace. Of course we are not naive, we all know that unlimited expansion is THE Romulan dogma. But even the most rigid Vulcanoid societies can change.

So yeah, looks like the few decades prediction has not come true which is hardly surprising.
If you view the Feds, the Klingons and the Romulans as the three main powers in the region we have a three player game. And such a game does not imply all out war (if A attacks B with all he has like in a 2p game C will stab him in the back) but rather the striving for a balance of powers. If someone is weak somewhere the enemy will tickle him a bit but that's it. The one wildcard in this game are the Klingons, they do not necessarily mind to take some chances and perish in glory. But the Romulans are fairly predictable, they will only strike if they can afford to attack the Feds without weakening their defenses against the Klingons.

Add the alliance between the Feds and the Klingons and it becomes obvious that the Romulans will not seek war as long as a rough balance of powers is maintained. The last war happened in the 22nd century and it was most likely devastating for both sides. Afterwards there have been some border incidents and the usual Romulan sneak tactics of spying and subverting. If you wanna keep the Rommies at bay you better make sure that you have decent intelligence services.
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Old April 22 2013, 01:18 PM   #42
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

horatio83 wrote: View Post
Let's check the fictional history of Trek.

2311 - Treaty of Algeron
2379 - Contrary to the warmongering notion that Romulans are devils who would never ever want peace (why then did they sign treaties with the Feds in the first place?) the events of NEM imply the chance for a real peace. Of course we are not naive, we all know that unlimited expansion is THE Romulan dogma. But even the most rigid Vulcanoid societies can change.
Really?
Let us analyze Nemesis:
Enter Shinzon, a human - hated by romulans. He represents the remans, hated by romulans.
And, yet, the romulans - the romulan military, to be exact: the power any praetor has to have behind him in order to have a life expectancy longer than a few days - overcome their utter disgust to such a degree that not only are they (along with other romulans) complicit in the utter elimination of the senate, but they give Shinzon the leadership of the romulan empire.

And what caused the romulans to overcome their deep seated racism and disgust to such a degree?
The fact that Shinzon had a weapon that could kill everyone on Earth and the fact that he promised the romulans to use it in order to sterilize Earth, killing billions.
Feel the love.

And this behavior of the romulans was the same from TOS to TNG to the last 24th century canon.

Of course we are not naive


Hitler pre-1938 was WAY less aggressive towards the allies than the romulans are towards the federation.

I mention this because the appeasers of that period also name-called the ones that were not foolishly naive as warmongers. And they were also hailed as heroes - until the war came, at least. A war made FAR bloodier by the actions of said appeasers.

So yeah, looks like the few decades prediction has not come true which is hardly surprising. (...)Add the alliance between the Feds and the Klingons and it becomes obvious that the Romulans will not seek war as long as a rough balance of powers is maintained.
Really?
Helping the Duras family, in order to break the federation-klingon allience.
An attempted attack on Vulcan.

And I am not even counting:
A plot to capture Enterprise, a high-profile starfleet capital ship - by using a defector carrying false information. A clear act of war.
Attempting to destroy Enterprise that just helped the romulan ship. A clear act of war.
etc, etc.

Of course the romulans do not try to start wars as long as the klingon-federation alliance/rough balance of powers/whatever exists.


The only reason a federation-romulan war has not happened until Nemesis is because the writers were not self-consistent:
A war was not depicted (only a very bitter cold war) - maybe they did not have the budget for a war, or the war would have been too serialized for TNG, or they had a lot of other plot lines on their hands, etc.
Why is that not self-consistent? Because the way the romulans were painted, war is inevitable.
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Old April 22 2013, 01:48 PM   #43
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

The idea that cloaking would confer a great strategic advantage seems quite off base. After all, Romulans can cloak at their leisure, yet they appear to be the definite strategic underdogs, always forced to attempt harebrained schemes to gain the upper hand (and always failing).

In general, giving up technology in an exchange where the opponent gives up aggression or territory is an incredibly advantageous bargain. Technology cannot be monitored, invisibility technology least of all, so you have given up nothing - whereas territory or state of war are obvious things the opponent can do absolutely nothing to obfuscate to his advantage. Basically, the UFP "gave up cloaking" and continued to cloak nevertheless, which must have been a great victory if the Romulans "gave up attacking" or "gave up the Outbackian Sector" and could do absolutely nothing to wiggle out of those quotation marks.

Because the way the romulans were painted, war is inevitable.
And since despite this there has been no war, the Feds appear to have made a fantastically successful deal here.

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Old April 22 2013, 02:00 PM   #44
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Timo wrote: View Post
Because the way the romulans were painted, war is inevitable.
And since despite this there has been no war, the Feds appear to have made a fantastically successful deal here.
That would be a fantastically idiotic deal.
Surviving the voluntary fall from a skyscaper gives no one the right to brag about how smart he was. Or how successful (aka positive result achieved by one's competence).

Writers-induced ridiculous luck gives no one a free pass with regards to incompetency and suicidal appeasement (meaning, the writers depicted the federation leadership as incompetent and suicidal).

the UFP "gave up cloaking" and continued to cloak nevertheless"
Except they continued to nothing.

The idea that cloaking would confer a great strategic advantage seems quite off base.
This is worthless as an argument because:
-it requires us to "forget" real world stealth technology and its advantages
-it requires us to be idiotic - as it was depicted in star trek, cloak IS a major advantage (an obvious conclusion reached by only a few deductions)
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Old April 22 2013, 03:18 PM   #45
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The only reason a federation-romulan war has not happened until Nemesis is because the writers were not self-consistent:
A war was not depicted (only a very bitter cold war) - maybe they did not have the budget for a war, or the war would have been too serialized for TNG, or they had a lot of other plot lines on their hands, etc.
Why is that not self-consistent? Because the way the romulans were painted, war is inevitable.
Sure, go on denying anything that actually happened on-screen and pretending that the writers are stupid while you are the only guy who has figured out how truly evil the Romulans are and that total war is imminent.
There is a reason the Feds are engaged in a cold and not a hot war with the Romulans. First, as already mentioned this is a three player game, there are also Klingons. Second, Romulans prefer intelligence work, sneaking, spying, lying and so on. Their dream is to set up two of their enemies against each other such that they do not get dirty hands themselves.

Now if we talk about the Borg or the Dominion, powers that simply threaten to overrun you, this is an entirely different ball game and I am the first guy to point out that the Feds weren't prepared for these challenges.
But giving up a cloaking technology you wouldn't wanna use in the first place after some incident with the Romulans is hardly stupid. And let's please cut this Chamberlain nonsense. First, everybody was fine with Hitler in the thirties, not just one British prime minister. Fascism didn't hurt business. Second, last time people cried "no appeasement!" in the real world a country was raped by the West. I am not too eager to learn the false lessons from history to justify warmongering.


Timo wrote: View Post
The idea that cloaking would confer a great strategic advantage seems quite off base. After all, Romulans can cloak at their leisure, yet they appear to be the definite strategic underdogs, always forced to attempt harebrained schemes to gain the upper hand (and always failing).

In general, giving up technology in an exchange where the opponent gives up aggression or territory is an incredibly advantageous bargain. Technology cannot be monitored, invisibility technology least of all, so you have given up nothing - whereas territory or state of war are obvious things the opponent can do absolutely nothing to obfuscate to his advantage. Basically, the UFP "gave up cloaking" and continued to cloak nevertheless, which must have been a great victory if the Romulans "gave up attacking" or "gave up the Outbackian Sector" and could do absolutely nothing to wiggle out of those quotation marks.
Indeed, it simply didn't matter much. Of course people can repeat ad infinitum that cloaking technology should give the Romulans a gigantic advantage ... but this is simply ignorant of what actually happened on the screen and hardly the basis for a Trek discussion.
It's kinda like saying that warp drive should not work and claiming that anything we see in Trek is thus impossible.
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