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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 14 2013, 04:24 AM   #16
JirinPanthosa
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

davejames wrote: View Post
TNG will always be a sentimental favorite, but objectively speaking I don't think there's any doubt that DS9 was the best-written show. By far.
I'll have to disagree with that. Consistency-wise, I think TNG S3-S6 was the best period for Trek writing. I can definitely see having DS9's writing as your personal preference, and it definitely aged better. But, DS9 did fall back on 'TV standard scenario' quite a bit, and although its main villains were compelling, its minor villains were your standard 'I'm going to be nasty for no reason' villains. You know 'Scott the Dick' from South Park? That was pretty much every villain in the series who was not Dukat, Winn, Weyoun, a Founder, or a Jem'Hadar first. (Either that or they were random psychopaths murdering people cause crazy and stuff)

And, again not counting seasons 1-2, TNG didn't have those 'flat out facepalm' episodes like Sword of Kahless where generally rational characters were acting like maniacs for no reason.

I can see not liking TNG's idealism and preferring DS9 more, but from a pure 'Making me interested in the drama without falling back on contrived personal drama' standpoint, I have to pick TNG's writing from seasons 3-6 over DS9.
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Old April 21 2013, 08:46 AM   #17
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

Are we saying DSN was influential in terms of, permeating popular culture? Or in terms of the effect its storytelling techniques and themes influenced later TV shows?

A number of DSN writers have gone on to very successful later careers -- Ronald D. Moore with Carnivale and Battlestar, Ira Steven Behr on The 4400, Bryan Fuller on Pushing Daisies. So a case could be made that DSN was most influential in that sense.
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Old April 21 2013, 11:12 AM   #18
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

I'd have to agree with what is being said, the most influential Trek show has to be TOS.
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Old April 21 2013, 04:36 PM   #19
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

"Most influential?"

Smells like agenda in favor of the Berman era. From a television position, to a filmed sci-fi position and the internal ST position, nothing matches TOS. To entertain DS9 as that on any level is a joke.
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Old April 26 2013, 07:57 PM   #20
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

A case could be made for DS9 being highly influential on the shows that have aired since. It's not so much its fame but its format, which has dominated television in the past two decades. There has been a greater focus on TV since DS9 on character-based drama and serialization. I think DS9 has a lot to do with that. For that reason, numerous shows today can trace a direct line to DS9 much more easily than the other Trek shows. Even sitcoms have skewed toward doing things DS9 was doing 20 years ago.

I would say TNG is highly influential as a show that popularized first-run syndication, and TOS as a show that, along with The Twilight Zone popularized relatively grownup science fiction for television. TOS also helped popularize shows with diverse teams.

Though I'm warming up on ENT, I wouldn't say it's influential. Nor would I say VOY is.
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Old April 27 2013, 01:35 AM   #21
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
"Most influential?"

Smells like agenda in favor of the Berman era. From a television position, to a filmed sci-fi position and the internal ST position, nothing matches TOS. To entertain DS9 as that on any level is a joke.
That reads almost as badly biased as the article in the original post.
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Old April 27 2013, 01:42 AM   #22
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

I think there is a fair argument that DS9 produced more influential writers than any other Trek series, as Sci suggests. I'm not sure it would hold -- but I think it could be made.

I think the notion that DS9 pioneered character-driven serialization is more than a tad overstated. DS9 was following on the footsteps of several other programs already, and was hardly the most influential.
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Old April 27 2013, 01:54 AM   #23
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

I can't get the entire article to display with the multipaging crap. But callng DS9 the "most influential" sounds like fanboy hyperbole to me. If there had been no TOS, there would have been no DS9.
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Old April 27 2013, 04:37 AM   #24
JirinPanthosa
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

The 'DS9 copied B5' argument is pretty ridiculous. It's not like a show on a space station that's serialized is a super-obscure idea two different groups couldn't possibly come up with on their own. It's like how South Park did an episode about pretending to be handicapped to cheat in the Special Olympics, then a crappy movie came out with the same premise. All the South Park fans said "The movie copied South Park!" Then the South Park creators said "No, they totally didn't copy us, it's just a really obvious idea."

A space station was a logical progression of the space opera genre that naturally lends itself to serial storylines which the hardcore end of the scifi fanbase was aching for at that point.

And B5 may have had an awesome main plot, but if you take any individual incident out of the context of the main plot, it suddenly looks really silly, whereas a majority of DS9 stories stand on their own in addition to being part of a great main plot.

But did DS9 really influence other scifi or was it just a good scifi series in a style that was just starting to become popular?
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Old April 27 2013, 05:21 AM   #25
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

The author is obviously a Niner.
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Old April 27 2013, 07:04 AM   #26
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

DS9 is a great show but like I say it is a completion/companion piece. DS9 only sticks out so much in peoples minds because of the strong contrast it has with TNG.

On TNG we saw what life was like in the post-Undiscovered Country galaxy. With peace with the Klingons and the StarFleet primarily focused on exploration and adventures in the final frontier. There were some curveballs thrown at TNG, the Borg in season 2, 3 and 4, the Klingon Civil War, Romulan-Vulcan Unification fiasco, the Cardassian incident in Chain of Command, contact with super beings like Q, the Traveler and the alien from 'the Surviors', and time travel fiascos. However it was all apart of the journey into the frontier and daily life was comfortable in the Federation outside of that.

DS9 with the introduction of the Dominion threat, a coup d'état attempt by a bent StarFleet admiral, the Maqui-Cardassian Fiasco and Section 31's genocide scheme you have more ridged show. Tough problems require tough decisions. However I don't think this means DS9 is a more competent show than TNG, just that the environment was crafted in a way that caused the DS9 crew to respond the way they did.

DS9 is Gotham to TNG's Metropolis. Gotham is dark, hard, corrupt, and needs hard solutions to fix it's bent function. Metropolis is light and bright, but monsters still fester there and strike out at it. Each has the appropriate hero to deal with the problems of their respective city. Could Superman fix Gotham? Sure, just like Picard and crew could navigate solutions for DS9's problems. Would Batman's tough tactics work in Metropolis? Of course only the variety of crime is different. There is no competency threshold DS9 has sole claim to. It's purely environmental.

A lot of people cite "In The Pale Moonlight" when Sisko uses says he can live with the consequences of ordering an assassination of a Romulan delegate to coerce the Romulan empire in to the war, and how Picard and Kirk could never do those things. No one ever seems to see how this risky game could've blown up in Sisko's face and led to and even swifter defeat of the Federation by the combined forces of the Dominion and the Romulans. Compare Sisko to Anakin Skywalker for a second. Both of them committed acts of evil in order to serve their own agendas. Sisko with the assassination to preserve the Federation and Anakin assisting the execution of every Jedi. However both maintained they could live with their actions because they would make up for it later. In summation "committing small acts of evil now but making up for it with greater acts of good later". Sisko's was the preservation of the Federation and peace in the Alpha and Beta Quads despite the potentially tens of thousands of Romulan lives that would be lost. Anakin's was saving his wife and children using the force to ressurect and save people from death, at the cost of the Jedi across the galaxy. Sisko's gamble turned out in his favor. The war was won and he never had to live with the consequences of his decisions for long since he soon departed this reality to live with the Prophets. After seeing Cardassia decimated, and learning the full scope of what the war cost in lives, Im sure Sisko wouldn't have remained "Defiant" about his statement about how he could live with his decision to get the Romulans into the war. Anakin's gamble didn't work out in his favor. He lost his wife and children, was mutilated by his mentor and friend and was burned alive. He was placed in a living life support suit and struggles to breath with his seared lungs, and never gained the powers he was promised.

You have to think what if. What if Sisko's gambit hadn't worked in his favor? Would people be singing his praises for his bold decision that worked in his favor?

DS9 is a great show, and easily in the top 3 of the Trek series. Is it the best or most influential? I'm afraid not.
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Old April 27 2013, 03:34 PM   #27
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

R. Star wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
"Most influential?"

Smells like agenda in favor of the Berman era. From a television position, to a filmed sci-fi position and the internal ST position, nothing matches TOS. To entertain DS9 as that on any level is a joke.
That reads almost as badly biased as the article in the original post.
*sets Phaser (TOS classic, of course) on stun*

You need to be checked out in Sickbay. Much crazy talk coming from you.
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Old April 27 2013, 05:42 PM   #28
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

I think we forget twenty years later how bold casting an African-American actor in the lead role was. I found this quote from the author of the "Far Beyond the Stars" novelization - "DS9 is a major cultural turning point for America, and therefore, the world as a whole... DS9 is, as far as I'm concerned, the first successful dramatic television show in history with a non-Caucasian star".
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Old April 27 2013, 07:34 PM   #29
R. Star
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
TREK_GOD_1 wrote: View Post
"Most influential?"

Smells like agenda in favor of the Berman era. From a television position, to a filmed sci-fi position and the internal ST position, nothing matches TOS. To entertain DS9 as that on any level is a joke.
That reads almost as badly biased as the article in the original post.
*sets Phaser (TOS classic, of course) on stun*

You need to be checked out in Sickbay. Much crazy talk coming from you.
Well at least you're not killing me for holding a different opinion!

I agreed in an earlier post that TOS was pretty much the foundation of Trek's influence. Though to say "nothing matches TOS" on a ST, sci-fi or tv level... well you're taking it as far as the eloquent fellow who wrote that article in my humble opinion.

But just because I concede the influential part, doesn't mean it's my favorite series. Roddenberry once said something to the effect of I hope better Star Trek comes after me made by other people... well... to me that's DS9.
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Old April 28 2013, 05:45 AM   #30
JirinPanthosa
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Re: "The best and most influential Trek series"

It is true DS9 greatly benefitted from the cultures and precedents established in TNG, and that the Dominion War wouldn't have been as cool if it weren't for several seasons of utopia preceding it. It doesn't diminish how awesome DS9 was, but a lot of the things DS9 capitalized on were earned by TOS and TNG.

Late TNG and DS9 are pretty much the same show with different characters anyway. DS9 got almost all the good TNG writers.

But I think the Sisko/Anakin comparison is pretty weak. In The Pale Moonlight was 'Ends justify the means', Anakin Skywalker was 'Anyone who opposes me should die because Palpatine convinced me to act completely on rage'.
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