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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old April 20 2013, 11:22 PM   #91
DonIago
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Re: What is "canon?"

^^Besides, Babylon 5 clearly trumps them all anyway.

(ducks)
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Old April 20 2013, 11:42 PM   #92
Nerys Myk
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Re: What is "canon?"

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
EliyahuQeoni wrote: View Post

Exactly, I don't get this talk of people "bailing" and becoming Star Wars fans or whatever, as if you can only be one or the other. I've been a Star Trek fan for as long as I can remember, a Star Wars fan since 1977 and a Doctor Who fan since around 1987. All at the same time. Does that make me some kind of heretic?
Yes. But you're in good company.
I suspect that the Star Wars vs. Star Trek rivalry is largely a myth. Most science fiction fans have probably enjoyed a fair amount of both, as well as ample amounts of Planet of the Apes, Terminator, Aliens, The Matrix, and probably Harry Potter as well.

They're not sports teams. You don't have to root for one against the other.
Yeah, back in the 70s my friends and I were devouring any information about Star Wars and every other SF film or series being made at the time. We never thought of them as rivals for Star Trek. It was more SF!!!!! Yay!!!! When TMP came out we didn't suddenly stop going to Star Wars films.

I think the generation that came of age between ROTJ and TPM went through the same experience as those from the era between TOS and TMP, where books ( and games) were the only source of content for their franchises. So its hard to let go of the stuff you grew up on.
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Old April 20 2013, 11:58 PM   #93
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Re: What is "canon?"

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Yes. But you're in good company.
I suspect that the Star Wars vs. Star Trek rivalry is largely a myth. Most science fiction fans have probably enjoyed a fair amount of both, as well as ample amounts of Planet of the Apes, Terminator, Aliens, The Matrix, and probably Harry Potter as well.

They're not sports teams. You don't have to root for one against the other.
Yeah, back in the 70s my friends and I were devouring any information about Star Wars and every other SF film or series being made at the time. We never thought of them as rivals for Star Trek. It was more SF!!!!! Yay!!!! When TMP came out we didn't suddenly stop going to Star Wars films..
Exactly. I saw the original SW trilogy with the same college friends I saw TMP and WRATH OF KHAN with, along with EXCALIBUR, CONAN THE BARBARIAN, and CAT PEOPLE!

Heck, as I recall, I saw THE PHANTOM MENACE on opening night with a whole gang of STAR TREK authors. None of us thought we were crossing enemy lines or anything.
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Old April 21 2013, 02:54 AM   #94
Danger Ace
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Re: What is "canon?"

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I read the books and I watch the TV series/movies. All I want to be is entertained. If they don't agree with each other, no big deal. If Joe Fan wants to hock his fanzine at a con, I don't care, I wouldn't buy it anyway. The "official" stuff makes for good reference and usually avoids editorializing.
I, for one, can respect that.

Another aspect to the whole "canon" debate (and forgive me if it has already been said) is to what degree folks are willing to go on the subject.

I mean some violations maybe pretty obvious, some just below the surface, but others can be pretty obscure or more minutiae than anything. Not to mention the self-appointed "canon-hawks" who enjoy making like J. Edgar Hoover in uncovering and debating ad nauseum alleged violations.

My biggest problems with the some of the books lay in stories that are just too absurd in content and scope to allow for a rationale hook by which to hang one's "willful suspension of disbelief." Some are just crammed with wild shenanigans into them only to have things reset in one or two paragraphs near the end. More then a few of the novels were shameful (eg "Black Fire"), in my opinion.

I should note, I have only read one Trek novel since the mid-80s and there maybe greater efforts made to ground the more fantastical elements into somewhat believable frameworks.
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Old April 21 2013, 03:02 AM   #95
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Re: What is "canon?"

BillJ wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
As soon as Fan Art hits the printers and is sold at cons--Paramount's Death Soldiers will start marching! They Police this stuff, that's what happened to zine sales at cons...
And the problem is?

Companies pay CBS good money for the licenses to the Star Trek property and it's CBS' job to protect the market.

The tech fans are free to continue they just can't sell their work.
The thing is, as I've said before, the Star WARS universe is more flexible and George Lucas lets fans be fans...
Paramount, on the other hand, acts like a big dick to fans because they expect a cut of everything, no matter how small and petty...
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Old April 21 2013, 03:06 AM   #96
Danger Ace
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Re: What is "canon?"

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Heck, as I recall, I saw THE PHANTOM MENACE on opening night with a whole gang of STAR TREK authors. None of us thought we were crossing enemy lines or anything.
The one fan feud which always made me chuckle: "Star Trek" versus "Space:1999" back in the 70s. For those who can, check out the early Starlogs or fanzines where some went at it.

I never understood it as, back then, decent science-fiction series' were few and far between (here in the United States). I mean Space:1999 looked good, had a fine cast and somewhat enteraining stories (though I haven't seen an episode since it went out of production).
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Old April 21 2013, 03:11 AM   #97
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: What is "canon?"

And "Black Fire" at least had some original elements in it...
If I remember correctly, it was also the first novel to depict the end of the 5-year mission by introducing the ST-TMP uniforms and some tech...

One thing I'll say about the old novels is that they didn't have to rely on cheap gimmicks like continuity porn... They generally tried to just tell a story... By the 90s' things started to really get out out of hand, and I for one though those multi-author "crossover" novels were abysmal, often bringing the story together cockeyed and just plain contradictory because each author was writing independently of one another... After a while some of the plots--the excuses For plots--became ridiculous... I think the "Day of Honor" ones were the best example of useless tie-ins to one another...
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Old April 21 2013, 03:13 AM   #98
Nerys Myk
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Re: What is "canon?"

Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
As soon as Fan Art hits the printers and is sold at cons--Paramount's Death Soldiers will start marching! They Police this stuff, that's what happened to zine sales at cons...
And the problem is?

Companies pay CBS good money for the licenses to the Star Trek property and it's CBS' job to protect the market.

The tech fans are free to continue they just can't sell their work.
The thing is, as I've said before, the Star WARS universe is more flexible and George Lucas lets fans be fans...
Paramount, on the other hand, acts like a big dick to fans because they expect a cut of everything, no matter how small and petty...
Let's see how that works with Disney in charge.

Was Lucas that loose with folks violating his IPs?
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Old April 21 2013, 03:19 AM   #99
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: What is "canon?"

Danger Ace wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Heck, as I recall, I saw THE PHANTOM MENACE on opening night with a whole gang of STAR TREK authors. None of us thought we were crossing enemy lines or anything.
The one fan feud which always made me chuckle: "Star Trek" versus "Space:1999" back in the 70s. For those who can, check out the early Starlogs or fanzines where some went at it.

I never understood it as, back then, decent science-fiction series' were few and far between (here in the United States). I mean Space:1999 looked good, had a fine cast and somewhat enteraining stories (though I haven't seen an episode since it went out of production).
I loved Space: 1999, at least the first season... But I Can see where a certain rivalry could spring up... A fan named James Dixon invented what he called COST (Copy Old Star Trek) Syndrome to explain these early SF shows failings...
Rather than being unique SF series, conquering the genre in their own styles, they caved-in to Trek's mold in an attempt to sucker-in Trek fans... COST works like this:
1. Owing to the popularity of the Spock character, add a token alien to the show. A regular which would hopefully be a new hearthrob to the new SF generation. This is usually accomplished with simple facial makeup. Space: 1999 gave us Maya, complete with upturned eyebrows and a computer-like mind. Buck Rogers gave us Hawk, a chicken man with a feathered headdress! TNG's token "alien" was Data and, if you prefer, Worf.
2. Emphasis more on Action, as in fist-fights.
3. More "message" episodes, even if the morality theme is cardboard-thin and so obvious that a 5-year old could get it.
4. Have Costuming change or implement snazzier uniforms. Perhaps more nautical in tone or emphasizing a chain-of-command. The new uniforms on Space: 1999 appeared out of nowhere at the start of the second season. Trek did this to itself, too, with ST II's maroon uniforms, implying a more militaristic background.

I personally blame this on Fred Freiberger taking the helm with the 2nd season...
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Old April 21 2013, 03:29 AM   #100
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: What is "canon?"

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Let's see how that works with Disney in charge.

Was Lucas that loose with folks violating his IPs?
Disney is gonna go Tiberian Batshit Crazy... I heard they want to pump out a new Star Wars movie Every Year, whether it is a mainstream "Episode" or some wacko Star Wars spinoff... As if I hadn't recovered from those made-for-TV "Ewok" movies!! After what they paid Lucas for it, they're gonna milk it Dry! And I pity the fan who enjoyed the "Expanded Universe" of Star Wars in the books and RPG... Abrams is gonna step in there and most likely screw the crap out of continuity in much the same way he wiped Trek continuity out of existence in '09!
The big difference though is: Abrams is gonna do is Slowly rather than with one big temporal BS jump... He's gonna tear a little off here, a little off there, and more there, and over there, and back there... <<<RRRRR! ARRRRRR!>> In the end it'll look like a bald Wookie that stumbled out of Mr. Mott's shop on a bad day...

Like setting Episode VII 40+ years after Episode IV... No problem except you won't see or hear of a Jacen or Jayna but maybe a Bill and Ted... And Chewie'll still be alive and howling... And the Empire will still be hounding down Rebels, maybe with a Death Star III... Oh yeah, the Pain...the Pain!

Know why? Just as Abrams isn't a Trek fan, he's really Not a Star Wars fan either--that is, he'll watch the movies but won't touch the books...

And all the Fans will Suffer For It!

And there's nothing in the universe that any fan can do to stop it from happening either!

I have foreseen it!
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Old April 21 2013, 10:50 AM   #101
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: What is "canon?"

^But will it really lessen those old novels in your eyes if the new movies contradict them? I still read and enjoy The Final Reflection, Final Frontier, Federation and other contradicted Trek novels. The sad truth is, tie-in novels are only read by about 2% of a show's TV/movie audience.
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
The thing is, as I've said before, the Star WARS universe is more flexible and George Lucas lets fans be fans...
Paramount, on the other hand, acts like a big dick to fans because they expect a cut of everything, no matter how small and petty...
Did he really? This site tells a rather different tale of early Star Wars fandom where it was George Lucas being difficult, particuarly with regard to any 'zines featuring adult content: http://fanlore.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Fanzines
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Old April 21 2013, 03:52 PM   #102
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: What is "canon?"

Things and people change with time... And I can direct you to sites to prove or disprove Any point...

And interview a particular person of interest/power on a bad day... Well, it Could trash your opinion of that person and/or relevance to the material!

Ultimately you have to use your own judgment in the end--and that's by taking in the big picture...not just a quote or an interview or some third person hearsay presented here and there...
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Old April 21 2013, 04:00 PM   #103
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: What is "canon?"

I'd call a request for all SW 'zines to be sent to Lucasfilm for cataloguing and vetting to be a lot more than heresay or the opinion of someone caught on a bad day.
More details on Lucas' open letter to Star Wars fans pubishers can be found here: http://fanlore.org/wiki/Open_Letter_...ine_Publishers

Star Trek allowed fanzine writers free reign to write about anything they wanted, so long as they didn't turn a profit.
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Old April 21 2013, 04:18 PM   #104
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Re: What is "canon?"

sojourner wrote: View Post
What's with the random capitalization and ... ?
Those posts are being brought to you by the letters J and D...
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Old April 21 2013, 04:41 PM   #105
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Re: What is "canon?"

This is CANNON:



A Quinn Martin Production

Starring William Conrad as Frank Cannon



Canon is also a maker of fine cameras and lenses.



STAR TREK cannon?:





Harry
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