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Old April 20 2013, 04:45 PM   #16
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I agree Spock and Kirk behaved badly in 'The Enterprise Incident' but thats the Cold War for you.
I don't the last time the Romulans had a cloaking advantage over the Federation that launched an unprovoked attack that destroyed multiple federation outposts and all but declared war on the Federation hell the only thing that probably stoped said potential war was Kirk chasing them down into the Neutral Zone, so why the hell should the federation not try to steal one of their cloaking devices to remove that advantage especially since this one doesn't have the motion sensor flaw.

Timo wrote: View Post
The Romulans appear to be quite willing to sign similarly hobbling treaties - they agreed not to develop polaric ion weapons ("Time and Again")
You mean the ones the blow holes in the space time continuum and would be just as likely to kill the Romulans as well as their enemies becuase their unstable.

and steered clear of subspace weapons, too (ST:INS).
1) The Romulans didn't sign the Khitomer Accords the Klingons did.

2) They were banned becuase they were unpredictable not becuase they were destructive, meaning much like polaric ion weapons they can burn them as well as their enemy

It also appears they never developed metagenic weapons, even though their know-how must have been decades or centuries ahead that of the Cardassians ("Chain of Command").
which is probable yet another weapon that could burn the side that uses it as well as the target

Timo wrote: View Post
...And seemed to be working pretty well.
The Dominion War says otherwise.

The Librarian wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
The treaty was stated as "keeping the peace" and given the mindset of the Federation in that time, the same one that kept giving concessions to the Cardassians even though they were actively violating the treaty there, I think the Federation's policy then -was- appeasement.
I know, I hate all that appeasement of the Cardassians, with those treaties where both sides gave up stuff that they claimed. Fifty-Four Forty or Fight!
except the Cardassians knew the federation wouldn't oppress the crap out of their colonists while they were free to oppress the crap out of their's.
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Old April 20 2013, 04:56 PM   #17
Timo
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

The treaty did seem to prevent an all-out war very efficiently - even the Minos Korva thing was heavily dependent on the Cardassians believing it would not result in a war.

As for joining totalitarian alliances, the Feds really shouldn't be the ones to speak. Or perhaps you were indeed referring to their longstanding alliance with the Klingons, and their instigating the war with the Dominion?

It would be interesting to learn what sort of treaties the Feds signed with the Klingons. Supposedly, the end of the Cold War with them led to the discontinuation of a Neutral Zone rather than the erection of one. Were there technology limitation talks? Territorial exchanges? Defining of spheres of influence?

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Old April 20 2013, 06:28 PM   #18
LobsterAfternoon
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

While we don't know everything, we do know that Federation ships were allowed to inspect Klingon ships in Fed space for health department type stuff.
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Old April 20 2013, 06:52 PM   #19
JessDD
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Were Klingon ships even allowed to cloak in Federation space?
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Old April 20 2013, 07:13 PM   #20
R. Star
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

JessDD wrote: View Post
Were Klingon ships even allowed to cloak in Federation space?
Never heard anything otherwise. Certainly they had no qualms about doing it.
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Old April 20 2013, 07:27 PM   #21
Anwar
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

We don't know what the Romulans gave up on their end of the deal. For all we know, it was to further develop those super-powerful plasma torpedoes they used in "Balance of Terror" against the Federation.

As it is, it's not such a bad deal. The Feds stop developing cloaks of their own, but they can still develop anti-cloaking sensors which would render cloaking useless (especially since cloaking takes away shields and weapons).
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Old April 21 2013, 12:46 AM   #22
Merry Christmas
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Jared wrote: View Post
WHY would the Federation agree to a treaty where they aren't allowed to explore the possibility and technology of cloaking?
The possibility exist that there was a military/ border dispute between the Federation and the Romulans, and the Federation lost.

Rather than continue a conflict that they obviously weren't going to win, the Federation agreed to a Romulan generated treaty that placed them at an disadvantage.

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Old April 21 2013, 02:02 AM   #23
Elias Vaughn
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

The Federation agreed not to use something they wouldn't use anyway in return for a peace. That seems like a fair trade to me.
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Old April 21 2013, 02:04 AM   #24
Nightdiamond
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The possibility exist that there was a military/ border dispute between the Federation and the Romulans, and the Federation lost.

Rather than continue a conflict that they obviously weren't going to win, the Federation agreed to a Romulan generated treaty that placed them at an disadvantage.

I never considered that possibility--the Federation simply lost a small scale battle and were forced to sign on to keep the peace.

However, I get the notion that the Federation (Humans) are very different than humans today. They are very pacifistic and see having a military as an unwanted necessity.

Picard refused to call the Starfleet the military and later on DS9 they had a problem calling the Defiant a warship.

However like Anwar, I think they signed it because they had developed other ways of sensing them, even though it was nowhere near foolproof.
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Old April 21 2013, 05:52 AM   #25
FKnight
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
The Federation agreed not to use something they wouldn't use anyway in return for a peace. That seems like a fair trade to me.
Yeah this. Or a variation of this. Perhaps both parties gave up something neither were going to use anyway, with the other unaware. Both ambassadors laughed their way back to their respective homeworlds.
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Old April 21 2013, 11:23 AM   #26
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

FKnight wrote: View Post
Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
The Federation agreed not to use something they wouldn't use anyway in return for a peace. That seems like a fair trade to me.
Yeah this. Or a variation of this. Perhaps both parties gave up something neither were going to use anyway, with the other unaware. Both ambassadors laughed their way back to their respective homeworlds.
Stealth/cloak is a major strategic/tactical advantage in both war and cold war - even if it's far from perfect: witness today's stealth technology.

Not using it when the other side has the technology is equivalent to suicide AKA stupidity.
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Old April 21 2013, 02:15 PM   #27
Merry Christmas
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Elias Vaughn wrote: View Post
The Federation agreed not to use something they wouldn't use anyway ...
Excuse me, but the Defiant on DS9?

There were a lot of situation, not involving the Romulans (or even the Klingons) where a Starfleet ship would have found a on board cloaking device useful, and could have saved lives.

In Tomorrow is Yesterday, simply raising the ship's deflector prevented the Enterprise from being detected on radar. And that just deflectors. Janeway used a type of cloaking device to penetrate a Borg unimatrix.

If a cloaking device can be used during an attack on the Borg, imagine how many lives could have been saved at Wolf359.

Starfleet could have used hundreds (or thousands) of cloaking devices in their long war against the Cardassians, shorting the war, and saving lives. Ending the war with a surrender, not a treaty. None of those border colonies would have gone to the Cardassians.

This would have also put the Federation in a position afterwards to end the Cardassian occupation of Bajor. Something they likely couldn't do with a active war in progress.

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Old April 21 2013, 03:28 PM   #28
The Librarian
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Keep in mind that from a Federation perspective, their new Klingon allies can develop cloaking devices perfectly fine. If some Federation scientists just happen to assist them, and the Klingons just happen to share their technical data for the purposes of anti-cloaking sensor research, then it would result in a situation where the Federation would not have immediate access to cloaking technology but could deploy it very quickly should the treaty with the Romulans ever break down.
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Old April 21 2013, 04:21 PM   #29
horatio83
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

First, the Tomed Incident was quite horrible and made the UFP eager to secure peace. Second, the Feds value peace in general fairly highly so they are willing to always pay a high price for it.
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Old April 21 2013, 05:35 PM   #30
Anwar
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Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Besides, cloaking tech was no longer that useful in the Dominion War since the Dominion can see cloaked ships (and the cloak still means the ship can't use shields or weapons) and if the Dominion can see cloaked ships you can bet the Borg can too.
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