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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 20 2013, 01:32 AM   #61
TheRoyalFamily
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

If all it took was the assassination of that one senator, the Rommies (or at least a powerful faction) were just itching to go against the Dominion (the destruction of the prize Tal Shiar fleet would not have gone over that well). Said senator probably was the opposition to joining the war - once he was gone, it was a forgone conclusion.
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Old April 20 2013, 06:59 AM   #62
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

^^^Possibly. But if so, then all that was required was the assassination. It is surprising some enterprising Romulan politician didn't beat Garak to the punch. Regardless, although this rationalizes some of the episode's political absurdities, it also renders the entire plot about falsifying intelligence completely irrelevant.
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Old April 20 2013, 12:50 PM   #63
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

stj wrote: View Post
^^^Possibly. But if so, then all that was required was the assassination. It is surprising some enterprising Romulan politician didn't beat Garak to the punch. Regardless, although this rationalizes some of the episode's political absurdities, it also renders the entire plot about falsifying intelligence completely irrelevant.
No. Because Sisko and Garak wouldn't be privy to every internal mechanization of the Romulan government.
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Old April 20 2013, 03:20 PM   #64
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

If Garak doesn't know that Vreenak is the key proponent of neutrality, then he has no reason to think forged intelligence can lead to Romulan war with the Dominion. The question of why he doesn't just assassinate the man, instead of farting around with Sisko, still remains to be answered. Garak and Sisko must know that they have strong support within the Rommulan government or they would have been afraid that assassinating Vreenak might have made the situation even worse.
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Old April 20 2013, 04:20 PM   #65
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

BillJ wrote: View Post
In the Pale Moonlight wrote:
SISKO: The Founders see it as their sacred duty to bring order to the galaxy. Their order. Do you think they'll sit idly by while you keep your chaotic empire right next to their perfect order? No. If you watch us go under, then what you're really doing is signing your own death warrant.
Yeah, but would the Founders be interested in conquering a "chaotic empire " that generally keeps to itself and probably has a couple hundred horrible WMDs hidden in the closet to deploy on its fleet of ships that can turn invisible.
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Old April 20 2013, 04:24 PM   #66
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
If all it took was the assassination of that one senator,
It didn't it took the assassination, the evidence that the Dominion did it, and the somewhat intact data rod discussing a Dominion invasion of Romulus which anything making it look like a fake can be blamed on damage from the bomb to get them in the war.
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Old April 20 2013, 04:35 PM   #67
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
In the Pale Moonlight wrote:
SISKO: The Founders see it as their sacred duty to bring order to the galaxy. Their order. Do you think they'll sit idly by while you keep your chaotic empire right next to their perfect order? No. If you watch us go under, then what you're really doing is signing your own death warrant.
Yeah, but would the Founders be interested in conquering a "chaotic empire " that generally keeps to itself and probably has a couple hundred horrible WMDs hidden in the closet to deploy on its fleet of ships that can turn invisible.
The Dominion has proven in the past that they can see though a claok if need be and I do think they have their eye on the Romulan Empire as well as the lingons and the Federation.
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Old April 20 2013, 04:39 PM   #68
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Yeah, but would the Founders be interested in conquering a "chaotic empire " that generally keeps to itself and probably has a couple hundred horrible WMDs hidden in the closet to deploy on its fleet of ships that can turn invisible.
The Romulans have shown no inclination to keep to themselves when it suits them. Do you think the Dominion has forgotten about the Romulans involvement in the attempt to obliterate the Founders homeworld? Where were their WMD's then?

I don't think the Founders would've treated the Romulan Empire any differently than they did the rest of the AQ powers.
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Old April 20 2013, 05:47 PM   #69
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
TheRoyalFamily wrote: View Post
If all it took was the assassination of that one senator,
It didn't it took the assassination, the evidence that the Dominion did it, and the somewhat intact data rod discussing a Dominion invasion of Romulus which anything making it look like a fake can be blamed on damage from the bomb to get them in the war.
Obviously they had to make it look like the Dominion did it. If it didn't, it would strengthen Vreenak's faction's hand.

BillJ wrote:
The Romulans have shown no inclination to keep to themselves when it suits them. Do you think the Dominion has forgotten about the Romulans involvement in the attempt to obliterate the Founders homeworld? Where were their WMD's then?

I don't think the Founders would've treated the Romulan Empire any differently than they did the rest of the AQ powers.
Dead Fish wrote:
They're dead. You're dead. Cardassia is dead. Your people were doomed the moment they attacked us. I believe that answers your question.
And the Romulans didn't partially atone by becoming the Dominion's stooges.
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Old April 20 2013, 06:41 PM   #70
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Yeah, but would the Founders be interested in conquering a "chaotic empire " that generally keeps to itself and probably has a couple hundred horrible WMDs hidden in the closet to deploy on its fleet of ships that can turn invisible.
The Romulans have shown no inclination to keep to themselves when it suits them.
Yeah, I mean they were just constantly attacking the federation

Do you think the Dominion has forgotten about the Romulans involvement in the attempt to obliterate the Founders homeworld?
You mean the one they had seemed to have gotten over in the case of the Cardassians

Where were their WMD's then?
Probably din't bring them
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Old April 20 2013, 07:06 PM   #71
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

You mean the one they had seemed to have gotten over in the case of the Cardassians
Definitely ended up working out for the Cardassians didn't it? Puppet regime controlled by the Dominion then eight hundred-million dead as a parting gift.
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Old April 20 2013, 09:50 PM   #72
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Yeah, but would the Founders be interested in conquering a "chaotic empire " that generally keeps to itself and probably has a couple hundred horrible WMDs hidden in the closet to deploy on its fleet of ships that can turn invisible.
The Romulans have shown no inclination to keep to themselves when it suits them.
Yeah, I mean they were just constantly attacking the federation

Do you think the Dominion has forgotten about the Romulans involvement in the attempt to obliterate the Founders homeworld?
You mean the one they had seemed to have gotten over in the case of the Cardassians

Where were their WMD's then?
Probably din't bring them

um, actually YES the Romulans WERE constantly scheming against the Federation, especially during the TNG era. "the defector" had them lay a trap to get the Enterprise, "unification" had them try to conquer Vulcan, "the enemy" had them try a border incursion, and then there's "Nemesis..."


yeah, those Romulans sure kept to themselves, leaving the Federation alone.
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Old April 20 2013, 10:02 PM   #73
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

sonak wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post


saving the Federation doesn't warrant that? Your "principles" won't mean a thing when the peoples of the Federation are killed or enslaved. A government's first responsibility is self-defense. They owed the Romulans nothing. The Romulans would have been fine with watching the UFP and the Klingons be destroyed while fighting for the freedom of the Alpha Quadrant.


The Garak quote is something like "you probably saved the Alpha Quadrant. And all it cost was the life of one criminal, one senator, and the self-respect of one Starfleet officer. I'd call that a bargain."
lol.. Sisko tricked an entire Empire into war. I don't see how that deceit was justified, based upon the Romulans who may have died in the war. As for the Romulans, they didn't need to give a shit, the Federation was their long-term enemy, whilst they were blood enemies of the Klingons. Who says a government's first responsibility is self-defence?

if you don't think a government's first responsibility is self-defense then there's no point in arguing this. A government cannot carry out ANY OTHER responsibilities if it is destroyed or conquered. Arguing about "federation principles" when there is no federation left is just silly.

The Federation and the Klingons were fighting FOR the Romulans whether the Romulans would admit it or not. The Dominion would have gone after them next.
lol.. Governments don't even exist. I personally don't give a shit what Sisko did since morality doesn't even exist. Only fools and losers believe in "morality".
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Old April 21 2013, 02:20 AM   #74
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

indolover wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post

lol.. Sisko tricked an entire Empire into war. I don't see how that deceit was justified, based upon the Romulans who may have died in the war. As for the Romulans, they didn't need to give a shit, the Federation was their long-term enemy, whilst they were blood enemies of the Klingons. Who says a government's first responsibility is self-defence?

if you don't think a government's first responsibility is self-defense then there's no point in arguing this. A government cannot carry out ANY OTHER responsibilities if it is destroyed or conquered. Arguing about "federation principles" when there is no federation left is just silly.

The Federation and the Klingons were fighting FOR the Romulans whether the Romulans would admit it or not. The Dominion would have gone after them next.
lol.. Governments don't even exist. I personally don't give a shit what Sisko did since morality doesn't even exist. Only fools and losers believe in "morality".

someone's been taking his Nietzsche reading a little too seriously...
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Old April 21 2013, 11:10 AM   #75
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Re: Anyone here who HATES "in the pale moonlight"

sonak wrote: View Post
indolover wrote: View Post

lol.. Governments don't even exist. I personally don't give a shit what Sisko did since morality doesn't even exist. Only fools and losers believe in "morality".

someone's been taking his Nietzsche reading a little too seriously...
indolover tends to do ~'X doesn't exist' whenever he loses an argument.

He probably thinks he appears cool and mysterious.
Little does he know the reaction his faux profound statements engender.

Well - a laugh now and then is good for the health.
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