RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,250
Posts: 5,348,646
Members: 24,613
Currently online: 619
Newest member: Chairslinger

TrekToday headlines

MicroWarriors Releases Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Ships Of The Line Design Contest
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Next Weekend: Shore Leave 36!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

True Trek History To Be Penned
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Insight Editions Announces Three Trek Books For 2015
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

To Be Takei Review by Spencer Blohm
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Mulgrew: Playing Red
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Hallmark 2015 Trek Ornaments
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Funko Mini Spock
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

IDW Publishing Comic Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 20 2013, 06:35 AM   #1
Jared
Commodore
 
Location: Starfleet Academy
Why is the Federation so dumb?

Ok so I'm rewatching "Pegasus" from TNG and wondering why...WHY would the Federation agree to a treaty where they aren't allowed to explore the possibility and technology of cloaking? This seems like a huge mistake. At the time they knew the Romulans had it, why would they want a potential enemy to have a huge advantage and not give themselves that advantage as well? It is weird.....

Here is a Memory Alpha link to the Treaty of Algeron that set up the Neutral Zone and outlined that the Federation couldn't use cloaking devices.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Algeron

Anyone have any ideas?
Jared is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 06:51 AM   #2
Third Nacelle
Captain
 
Third Nacelle's Avatar
 
Location: The Denorios Belt
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

This may sound a bit Roddenberrian of me, but I don't think even without the treaty, that cloaking technology is something the Federation would seek anyway. It's dishonest trickery, and that's not how the Federation works.

Of course there will always be elements within the Federation (Pressman & Co.) who would seek it regardless of the treaty, because that's just how those kinds of people work.
Third Nacelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 06:54 AM   #3
Herkimer Jitty
Rear Admiral
 
Herkimer Jitty's Avatar
 
Location: Dayglow, New California Republic
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Herkimer Jitty
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Maybe it forces the Romulans to disarm the type of weapon they used in Balance of Terror. Basically, "You give up your Starbase-killing weapons, and we won't use cloaking devices."
__________________
"What?" - { Emilia }
Herkimer Jitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 07:00 AM   #4
Bry_Sinclair
Commodore
 
Bry_Sinclair's Avatar
 
Location: Along the border of Talarian space
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

It must've been a means of securing peace. The Federation and the Romulans could have been building up towards war, which was only prevented by the Treaty of Algeron. The UFP gave up cloaking research, perhaps the Romulans gave up something as well.

One thing I don't understand is why no one developed the phasing side of the phasing-cloak. Something doesn't need to be invisible to be intangible.
__________________
Avatar: Captain Susanna Leijten, U.S.S. Silverfin NCC-4470, Border Service Third Cutter Squadron
Manip by: FltCpt. Bossco (STPMA)
Bry_Sinclair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 07:56 AM   #5
CommishSleer
Fleet Captain
 
CommishSleer's Avatar
 
Location: Way back of nowhere
View CommishSleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

I agree with the original poster. I don't see thats its credible and realistic for the Federation to agree to not ever create or investigate a cloaking device.
Surely the Romulans have violated any agreements by their behaviour in several episodes in TNG. Their attempted invasion of Vulcan.
If war broke out between the Federation and Romulus would the Federation still agree to the treaty while their ships were being wiped out by cloaked Romulan ships?
I agree Spock and Kirk behaved badly in 'The Enterprise Incident' but thats the Cold War for you.
CommishSleer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 08:14 AM   #6
C.E. Evans
Vice Admiral
 
C.E. Evans's Avatar
 
Location: Saint Louis (aka Defiance)
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
It must've been a means of securing peace. The Federation and the Romulans could have been building up towards war, which was only prevented by the Treaty of Algeron. The UFP gave up cloaking research, perhaps the Romulans gave up something as well.
Basically this.

We don't know what the Romulans gave up, though, but apparently the Federation not pursuing cloaking technology has maintained peace (albeit at times tenuous) with the Romulans.
__________________
"Everybody wants to rule the world..."
C.E. Evans is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 11:38 AM   #7
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

The Romulans appear to be quite willing to sign similarly hobbling treaties - they agreed not to develop polaric ion weapons ("Time and Again") and steered clear of subspace weapons, too (ST:INS). It also appears they never developed metagenic weapons, even though their know-how must have been decades or centuries ahead that of the Cardassians ("Chain of Command").

The Trek universe is full of superweapons. Just like in the real world, those are usually the most powerful and effective when not used - and thus the most cost-effective when not built in the first place.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 12:40 PM   #8
not
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Perhaps, the art of politics? Ultimately, any treaties signed have a purpose and the Federation found it in not seeking cloaking technology. A deal is sometimes what you don’t get too.
not is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 01:28 PM   #9
The Wormhole
Admiral
 
The Wormhole's Avatar
 
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

Third Nacelle wrote: View Post
This may sound a bit Roddenberrian of me, but I don't think even without the treaty, that cloaking technology is something the Federation would seek anyway. It's dishonest trickery, and that's not how the Federation works.
Yeah, so the story goes, Roddenberry said the Federation shouldn't have any cloaking devices because "they're peaceful explorers and have nothing to hide."

Although, we saw in AGT that with the Romulans defeated by the Klingons the Federation were free to develop claoking technology and indeed the Enterprise had a claoking device.
__________________
"Internet message boards aren't as funny today as they were ten years ago. I've stopped reading new posts." -The Simpsons 20th anniversary special.
The Wormhole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 01:34 PM   #10
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

And in "The Pegasus", we saw that even without the Romulans gone, the Federation were free to develop cloaking technology and indeed the Enterprise had a cloaking device...

They just couldn't admit to it in public. (Except that in the episode, they did, and apparently there was no ill effect.)

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 02:14 PM   #11
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

The treaty was stated as "keeping the peace" and given the mindset of the Federation in that time, the same one that kept giving concessions to the Cardassians even though they were actively violating the treaty there, I think the Federation's policy then -was- appeasement.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 02:19 PM   #12
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

...And seemed to be working pretty well.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 04:16 PM   #13
The Librarian
Commodore
 
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

R. Star wrote: View Post
The treaty was stated as "keeping the peace" and given the mindset of the Federation in that time, the same one that kept giving concessions to the Cardassians even though they were actively violating the treaty there, I think the Federation's policy then -was- appeasement.
I know, I hate all that appeasement of the Cardassians, with those treaties where both sides gave up stuff that they claimed. Fifty-Four Forty or Fight!
The Librarian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 04:19 PM   #14
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

The Librarian wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
The treaty was stated as "keeping the peace" and given the mindset of the Federation in that time, the same one that kept giving concessions to the Cardassians even though they were actively violating the treaty there, I think the Federation's policy then -was- appeasement.
I know, I hate all that appeasement of the Cardassians, with those treaties where both sides gave up stuff that they claimed. Fifty-Four Forty or Fight!
Yeah... so what if they don't honor it, keep plotting to sieze disputed systems like Minos Korva and actively terrorize your colonists to the point where they start fighting to survive. Join with our Cardassian neighbors to stomp the foot of those colonist's faces for daring to not quietly be oppressed!

At least they won't do anything like join a totalitarian alliance and instigate the largest war in Federation history!
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 20 2013, 04:28 PM   #15
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: Why is the Federation so dumb?

it's hard to say without knowing what the Romulans gave up, and knowing how the war was going. If the UFP was losing or it was basically a stalemate, the treaty might have seemed like a good idea.
__________________
"why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:00 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.