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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 15 2013, 11:58 AM   #16
Timo
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

That sounds pretty convoluted. Worf knows Breen evaporate at exposure => he quotes a rumor that Breen appearances are kept secret by all the witnesses dying before they can report?

Sure, witnesses dying would help keep the secret, any secret. But it's really quite irrelevant if there's nothing to witness. Which means Worf doesn't know that the Breen cannot be de-helmeted and witnessed, or Ezri doesn't know this and Worf likes to play up the mystique.

We may argue that neither Kira nor Dukat were UFP or Starfleet personnel, and that neither Ezri nor Worf come from a Federation member species, which gives us the opportunity to assign "national" motivations for secrecy for each of the characters. But that takes some doing. Or we may find arguments for why Ezri and Worf would be especially ignorant individuals. Heck, we may even say they are talking for the benefit of the inevitably eavesdropping Breen! But simple explanations based on the true nature of the Breen are basically still out of the question, due to the wording of Worf's ignorance/deceit.

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Old April 15 2013, 12:02 PM   #17
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

t_smitts wrote: View Post
Did anyone else expect there to be some big reveal, rather than just being a new ally for the Dominion?
No. They were too tertiary to expect that.
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Old April 15 2013, 01:02 PM   #18
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

Timo wrote: View Post
That sounds pretty convoluted. Worf knows Breen evaporate at exposure => he quotes a rumor that Breen appearances are kept secret by all the witnesses dying before they can report?
What are you even talking about?

Worf: "They say no one has ever seen one and lived to speak of it."
Worf simply said that no one saw how a breen looks like. That is it.

As for the rest - the conspiracy theory has as much weight as an urban legend.
Maybe the breen kill all who saw them, maybe no one managed to see them in order for them to bother, maybe they just do not care either way. None of these possibilities contradicting my explanation in the least, Timo.
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Old April 15 2013, 02:40 PM   #19
Timo
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

Worf: "They say no one has ever seen one and lived to speak of it."
Worf simply said that no one saw how a breen looks like. That is it.
Sure. And it completely contradicts the idea that Worf would know what happens when one removes the helmet of a Breen. Worf is the stationmate of the officer who de-helmeted a Breen (and captured and/or killed dozens more, at close range, while fully in liberty to examine her captives or victims afterwards) and very much lived to tell the tale. There's no "they say" to that story - it's not "they", it's frigging Colonel Kira! There's no "witnesses could tell if they lived" to that story, either.

We're still very much stuck with Worf not knowing what Kira saw, or then knowing but lying his eyes and ears full. Which is odd and calls for an explanation, quite regardless of what the Breen look like and whether they melt when revealed.

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Old April 15 2013, 03:04 PM   #20
The Librarian
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

chrinFinity wrote: View Post
SISKO: You're Klingons!

BREEN: Yes, Captain. We are descended from warriors of the Second Empire, we conquered the Breen centuries ago.

BREEN LEADER BRANDISHES [BREEN DISRUPTOR PISTOL]

BREEN: Unfortunately you won't be reporting this discovery to your superiors.

SISKO: I've never met Klingons before who murder unarmed civilians, destroy helpless ships, and hide their faces in battle. What would Kahless think?
Kor wrote:
For every Klingon soldier killed, two hundred civilians will be executed.
Ah, Klingons. So fond of honor when it suits them, and not when it's inconvenient.
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Old April 15 2013, 05:55 PM   #21
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

Timo wrote: View Post
Worf: "They say no one has ever seen one and lived to speak of it."
Worf simply said that no one saw how a breen looks like. That is it.
Sure. And it completely contradicts the idea that Worf would know what happens when one removes the helmet of a Breen.
Not really.
Worf knows that, when one removes the helmet, the breen is vaporized by his suit AKA no one has ever seen a breen - including after removing the helmet of a formerly inhabited breen suit.
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Old April 15 2013, 06:43 PM   #22
Hartzilla2007
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

chrinFinity wrote: View Post
From that point forward I was expecting the reveal to be that the Breen were actually differently-motivated Klingons with their own offshoot culture (sort of like the Romulans are for the Vulcans). Something like, victory at all costs and we'll gladly shoot you with your back turned, plus we run away from fights when the odds are bad (honour be damned).
So basically TOS Klingons in disguises.
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Old April 17 2013, 01:11 PM   #23
Timo
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

Worf knows that, when one removes the helmet, the breen is vaporized by his suit AKA no one has ever seen a breen - including after removing the helmet of a formerly inhabited breen suit.
So he has no reason to babble about the "elimination of witnesses" thing, which loses all relevance due to the vaporization trick. And yet he does...

Perhaps the real secret superpower of the Breen, possibly built into their suits, is to make everybody confused and mystified even when the facts are known and clear.

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Old April 17 2013, 08:47 PM   #24
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?


As I've already told you - repeatedly -, Timo, Worf knows one cannot see how a breen looks like by removing the helmet of his suit.

And he also knows about an 'urban legend' that anyone that manages to see a breen (which requires some doing but is not a priori impossible) is eliminated by the breen. An urban legend born, most likely, because actually seeing a breen is so difficult.

In other words, no contradictions. Deal with it - as opposed to being intentionally dense.
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Old April 18 2013, 11:37 AM   #25
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

The Librarian wrote: View Post
Ah, Klingons. So fond of honor when it suits them, and not when it's inconvenient.
This is the main reason I never liked the Klingons. They are always spouting off about honor, but in reality they were just ruthless killers that used "honor" as a guise to murder and conquer....my opinion of course.

As for the Breen. I thought they were really cool (even with the helmet similarities to ROTJ) and wished they were shown more in the series/Trek. Do they appear at all on screen in ENT or VOY?
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Old April 18 2013, 01:38 PM   #26
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
t_smitts wrote: View Post
Did anyone else expect there to be some big reveal, rather than just being a new ally for the Dominion?
No. They were too tertiary to expect that.
Yep. There was far too much else going on for it to ever be something they were building up to.
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Old April 20 2013, 12:20 PM   #27
Timo
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

Worf knows one cannot see how a Breen looks like by removing the helmet of his suit
There's no indication that he does. But that's not the problem with his dialogue at all - the problem is that he thinks witnesses die before singing, which demonstrates he is wholly ignorant of "Indiscretion". And that trumps all idle speculation on what else he might know - we absolutely must assume that information on the Breen does not travel freely between our DS9 heroes, for whatever odd, silly or dramatically interesting reason.

In other words, no contradictions.
I don't fault the novels from attempting the Space: Above and Beyond solution. They have thousands of words to spare to make it sound halfway plausible, just like they can afford to spend entire chapters to make "Trip Is Alive!" a mitigated disaster rather than worse. The onscreen dialogue just happens to be more compact, and rather clearly written without continuity in mind, which puts extra pressure on the novels to justify the solution. And it seems the solution in no way helps with Worf's demonstrated ignorance of Kira's achievements in this field.

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Old April 20 2013, 03:18 PM   #28
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

Timo, seeing phased vapors is not seeing a breen AKA is not being a witness to be killed as per an urban legend - as I have redundantly explained.
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Old April 20 2013, 03:43 PM   #29
Timo
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

It doesn't get any better even at the umpteenth explaining. Witnesses surviving or not simply don't have anything to do with the ability to see into a Breen suit, if the Breen evaporate - it's an element Worf should never introduce into the dialogue if he believed in evaporation. Yet Worf does bring it up, as his premier explanation to why he can't tell Ezri whether the Breen are fuzzy, even. It can't be read as an incidental bit touching upon an already clear-cut issue of why the Breen faces remain hidden.

At the very best, the dodge of Worf "knowing Breen evaporate" amounts to the same thing as the Borg not being known to the Federation after "Regeneration" being okay because they didn't technically give their name to Archer in the episode... It just doesn't explain anything plausibly, it merely dodges.

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Old April 20 2013, 04:52 PM   #30
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Was anyone else expecting some big reveal with the Breen?

Timo, you know a phaser beam - as per canon - can vaporize almost all aliens.
In other words, the fact that breen bodies can be vaporised by their suits gives practically no information about the breen - they can be fuzzy, even.

One can't see how a breen loks like by removing the helmet of his suit - but one can, theoretically, by more elaborate means; the breen are not born in their suits, etc. As in, 'witnesses' are not excluded - but should be few and far between; and an urban legend is born.
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