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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 19 2013, 11:25 PM   #136
OneBuckFilms
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

BillJ, I think Klingon ownership / transfer of ownership of the briar patch in general, does not change the relevent fact of the Baku's claim or their long history of ownership.

Obviously the Klingons did not kick them out, and may not have even knew they existed, otherwise, their world would look very, very different.

The Federation's highest laws, and this dates back to Kirk in TOS at least, states that "your world is yours".

The Federation is an alliance for the mutual benefit of member worlds, much more like the United Nations than the Roman Empire.
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Old April 20 2013, 12:38 AM   #137
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
BillJ, I think Klingon ownership / transfer of ownership of the briar patch in general, does not change the relevent fact of the Baku's claim or their long history of ownership.

Obviously the Klingons did not kick them out, and may not have even knew they existed, otherwise, their world would look very, very different.

The Federation's highest laws, and this dates back to Kirk in TOS at least, states that "your world is yours".

The Federation is an alliance for the mutual benefit of member worlds, much more like the United Nations than the Roman Empire.

even if the planet was definitively shown to be the Baku's, it doesn't really help their situation. It wouldn't prevent the Federation from negotiating with them for removal, and it certainly wouldn't obligate the Federation to DEFEND them from pretty much EVERY major power that's going to try to take it from them after the events of STIX.

What's to stop the Federation Council from saying "yeah it's yours, good luck defending it, tiny village of pacifist Luddites!"
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Old April 20 2013, 02:57 AM   #138
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
The Federation's highest laws, and this dates back to Kirk in TOS at least, states that "your world is yours".
But in Friday's Child, Kirk was talking to an indigenous people, about their own planet. If the Capellans were only 600 people from another planet, would Kirk have said the same? Unlikely.

MacLeod wrote: View Post
They weren't Federation members.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the Baku are Federation Members.

But the Federation had no right to move them in the first place.
Well, if the Federation and the Sona wanted to be nasty about it, the could have left the Baku and let them die.

can the Federation just swoop onto an inhabiated planet and take what they want?
Kirk: "But you have the ryetalyn that we need. If necessary, we'll take it."


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Old April 20 2013, 06:23 AM   #139
OneBuckFilms
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

T'Girl wrote: View Post
OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
The Federation's highest laws, and this dates back to Kirk in TOS at least, states that "your world is yours".
But in Friday's Child, Kirk was talking to an indigenous people, about their own planet. If the Capellans were only 600 people from another planet, would Kirk have said the same? Unlikely.
If those 600 people were there for a long time (fact), and the colony was established by them (another fact), actually very likely.

How many times has the Enterprise-D visited an established colony, regardless of size or longevity, and respected the sovereignty of that colony? I think I lost count of that one.

Still, it is factually established as an ideal of the Federation, unless Kirk lied.

It is one of the key things that Kirk believes sets them apart from the Klingons.
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Old April 20 2013, 06:29 AM   #140
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

sonak wrote: View Post
OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
BillJ, I think Klingon ownership / transfer of ownership of the briar patch in general, does not change the relevent fact of the Baku's claim or their long history of ownership.

Obviously the Klingons did not kick them out, and may not have even knew they existed, otherwise, their world would look very, very different.

The Federation's highest laws, and this dates back to Kirk in TOS at least, states that "your world is yours".

The Federation is an alliance for the mutual benefit of member worlds, much more like the United Nations than the Roman Empire.

even if the planet was definitively shown to be the Baku's, it doesn't really help their situation. It wouldn't prevent the Federation from negotiating with them for removal, and it certainly wouldn't obligate the Federation to DEFEND them from pretty much EVERY major power that's going to try to take it from them after the events of STIX.

What's to stop the Federation Council from saying "yeah it's yours, good luck defending it, tiny village of pacifist Luddites!"
One could theoretically invoke the Prime Directive in terms of whether or not to mount a defense, but the fact is that the Federation were partially and directly responsible, and the Baku were advanced enough that the Prime Directive was not applicable.

Morally and Ethically, Picard turned on a Federation that had turned it's back on its own core principals.

The Federation provides help and assistance when necessary, part of the mission profile of a Federation Starship.
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Old April 20 2013, 08:14 AM   #141
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

BillJ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
They weren't Federation members. They colonised the world before the Federation was founded. So the Ba'ku had first claim to the then unihabiated planet. It doesn't matter that the planet would later fall within Federation space, there are no doubt many inhabiated worlds within the region of space claimed by the Federation that aren't members, can the Federation just swoop onto an inhabiated planet and take what they want?
Maybe, maybe not.

We know that two hundred years prior the Briar Patch belonged to the Klingons. If it belonged to them before the Ba'ku set down on the planet (which nothing in canon says one way or the other) and then that planet was given to the Federation for whatever reason, there would be continuous ownership of it by someone other than the Ba'ku.
OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
BillJ, I think Klingon ownership / transfer of ownership of the briar patch in general, does not change the relevent fact of the Baku's claim or their long history of ownership.

Obviously the Klingons did not kick them out, and may not have even knew they existed, otherwise, their world would look very, very different.
Klingon ownership of the briar patch before the baku arrived gives Klingons/the federation prior claim to the briar patch.

The baku are nothing more than tresspassers.
You actually think tresspassers have any claim to the land they tresspass on?
If yes, the federation doesn't share your opinion. If it would, the romulans would have long ago conquered the federation by settling a few hundred romulans on every non-inhabited federation planet and claiming it as their own.

The Federation's highest laws, and this dates back to Kirk in TOS at least, states that "your world is yours".

The Federation is an alliance for the mutual benefit of member worlds, much more like the United Nations than the Roman Empire.
Except the briar patch is NOT the baku's world - homeworld or otherwise. Tresspassing on a land does NOT make it yours.

And NOT harvesting the immortality particles does a HUGE disservice to the member worlds of the federation and the billions of beings inhabiting them.


Legally, the baku have no legitimate claim on the immortality planet.
Morally, letting billions suffer for the vanity of 600 is obscene.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; April 20 2013 at 08:24 AM.
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Old April 20 2013, 09:15 AM   #142
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Yes but if the Ba'ku settled on that world before the Klingons claimed that space they aren't tresspassers. If you are going down the line that the planet was never theirs to begin with. It would be more like squatting, and after several hundred years if the Federation regonised it adverse possesion might come in to play.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession

Or in simple terms because no one had objected to the Ba'ku presence for centuries, the KE and UFP let their claim to the planet lapse. And soverignity of the planet passed to the Ba'ku.
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Old April 20 2013, 10:47 AM   #143
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

First - such legal quibbles as arguments are used only because your side has run out of other, more fundamental objections, MacLeod:
Concerning the moral side, your position is falimentary;
Even with regards to the legal side (as per current law, that is), as long as you don't come with highly improbable speculation such as your last post, you have no argument (simply put, the federation has AT LEAST* the legal right to invoke eminent domain; it didn't only in order for the baku NOT to appear as the elitist jerks who could care less about anyone else they are).

Second:
The baku did not settle unclaimed space.
Why?
Because when this space was claimed by the klingons, they would have searched their new property and evicted these few hundreds of luddites with extreme prejudice, especially considering what a clement/valuable M class world these luddites were on.

The baku's possession of that planet - during klingon reign, at least - was not visible, but hidden - if it was visible, the klingons would never have allowed it.
And hidden possession will not lead to adverse possession no matter how much time passes.
As for the federation - even if it knew about the baku and let them stay on the planet: possession by the allowance of the owner will never lead to adverse possession, no matter how much time passes.

*Eminent domain is invoked to get land from its rightful owner, for reasons of public utility/interest, after compensation - and it doesn't matter whether this owner got his land before or after the forming of the country that incorporates his land.
When it comes to tresspassers - as the baku are - one just evicts them.
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Last edited by Edit_XYZ; April 20 2013 at 11:05 AM.
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Old April 20 2013, 12:05 PM   #144
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Nothing like a good old fashion Insurrection circle-jerk!
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Old April 20 2013, 12:50 PM   #145
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Yes but if the Ba'ku settled on that world before the Klingons claimed that space they aren't tresspassers.
Prior to the Klingons, the Romulans possessed the area.

It would be more like squatting, and after several hundred years if the Federation regonised it adverse possession might come in to play.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adverse_possession
From the wiki article you presented.

In Cone v. West Virginia Pulp & Paper, the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit held that Cone ... because his actions did not change the land from a wild and natural state.

So, by this the Baku might have been able to establish a legal claim to the one valley they were occupying, and area where they built the reservoir, but not the entire planet, and certainly not the rings.

And what really works against the Baku in term of "adverse possession" is this.

The disseisor's use of the property must be so visible and apparent that it gives notice to the legal owner that someone may assert claim, and must be of such character that would give notice to a reasonable person.

The Baku, by their own admission, were hiding. That's part of the reason they choose a planet in the brier patch. According to the series Enterprise, when the Baku first landed, the area of space which included the ring planet was the possession of the Romulan Empire. Did the Baku make themselves "visible and apparent" to the Romulans? No they didn't.

As pointed out by Edit XYZ, neither did the Baku make themselves "visible and apparent" to the Klingons subsequent to the Klingons acquiring the area.

And later they didn't make themselves obvious to the Federation when they acquired the area.

In the episode Spectrum of the Gun, when a Federation starship "encroached" on the space of the Melkot, they were met by a device that inform them of the Melkot's claim to the space. The Baku arrived at the ring planet by (presumably) a starship, and they were able to diagnose the exact problem with Data's positronic brain.

For them to have placed a reasonable number of buoys of some sort outside the brier patch to announce their presence and their claim to the ring planet would have been within their means.


Last edited by Merry Christmas; April 20 2013 at 01:10 PM.
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Old April 20 2013, 04:23 PM   #146
sonak
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post
BillJ, I think Klingon ownership / transfer of ownership of the briar patch in general, does not change the relevent fact of the Baku's claim or their long history of ownership.

Obviously the Klingons did not kick them out, and may not have even knew they existed, otherwise, their world would look very, very different.

The Federation's highest laws, and this dates back to Kirk in TOS at least, states that "your world is yours".

The Federation is an alliance for the mutual benefit of member worlds, much more like the United Nations than the Roman Empire.

even if the planet was definitively shown to be the Baku's, it doesn't really help their situation. It wouldn't prevent the Federation from negotiating with them for removal, and it certainly wouldn't obligate the Federation to DEFEND them from pretty much EVERY major power that's going to try to take it from them after the events of STIX.

What's to stop the Federation Council from saying "yeah it's yours, good luck defending it, tiny village of pacifist Luddites!"
One could theoretically invoke the Prime Directive in terms of whether or not to mount a defense, but the fact is that the Federation were partially and directly responsible, and the Baku were advanced enough that the Prime Directive was not applicable.

Morally and Ethically, Picard turned on a Federation that had turned it's back on its own core principals.

The Federation provides help and assistance when necessary, part of the mission profile of a Federation Starship.

nope, you can't have it both ways, as the movie tries to do. Picard's involvement could only be even REMOTELY justified insofar as the Federation was already involved. Once they all left at the end of the movie, there was NO reason to continue to defend them, especially as the Baku were contributing nothing to the Federation at large.


pick an option: either it's in Federation territory and they can legally and ethically remove the Baku or it's not and the Federation could have had the Son'a come in and settle their dispute with the Baku by force.


(this is usually the part in the discussion where the anti-removal crowd starts moving the goalposts and insisting that the Federation has a moral OBLIGATION to defend the Baku.)
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Old April 20 2013, 04:54 PM   #147
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

OneBuckFilms wrote: View Post

The Federation provides help and assistance when necessary, part of the mission profile of a Federation Starship.
Even Picard admits that Dougherty got the Federation involved in a blood feud. At the point they found out that the S'ona/Ba'ku were the same race fighting for control of resources, the Federation (Picard/Dougherty) should've recused itself from the whole mess. It would, by definition, be an internal matter (per Redemption)

The above works under the assumption that the planet does not belong to the Federation.
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Old April 20 2013, 04:58 PM   #148
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

Trying to relocate the Baku was immoral and the Feveration wasn't aware of the full story which is why Picard sent Riker to inform them. But in the end Picard knew what was right and what was wrong from his point of view and he stood up for people who couldn't stand up for themselves, morally he did the right thing.
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Old April 20 2013, 05:08 PM   #149
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

DWF wrote: View Post
But in the end Picard knew what was right and what was wrong from his point of view and he stood up for people who couldn't stand up for themselves, morally he did the right thing.
Is it your position then that the Federation (through Starfleet) should be consistent and always stand "up for people who couldn't stand up for themselves?" No matter where in the galaxy they find these people?

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Old April 20 2013, 05:12 PM   #150
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

DWF wrote: View Post
...he stood up for people who couldn't stand up for themselves...
Not people who couldn't stand up for themselves, people who refused to stand up for themselves...

Star Trek:Insurrection wrote:
SOJEF: The moment we pick up a weapon, we become one of them. ...We lose everything we are.
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