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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old April 20 2013, 12:02 AM   #121
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

trevanian wrote: View Post
CHANGING THE LOOK OF THE UNIVERSE IS COSMETIC?

For Q maybe.
Of course it is. It has no impact whatsoever on the story if the S.S. Aurora looks as it did in TOS or TOS-R.
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Old April 20 2013, 12:52 AM   #122
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

I really Enjoy TOS-R and I don't think they went far enough at times. All in all I do like what they have done.

I wish they had gone this far...http://vimeo.com/12023417
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Old April 20 2013, 01:08 AM   #123
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Gojira wrote: View Post
I really Enjoy TOS-R and I don't think they went far enough at times. All in all I do like what they have done.

I wish they had gone this far...http://vimeo.com/12023417
Would be impressive to see an episode redone in that style. Though I would think redoing the whole series would be prohibitively expensive.
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Old April 20 2013, 01:18 AM   #124
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

A few comments on the above.
  1. Re the argument that the originals are not gone. For a lot of people they are. Go to syndication or Netflix and watch a TOS episode and you dont have the option to see the originals. So, unless you are willing to shell out money to own bluray discs, you can't watch the originals any more.
  2. Re if some of the effects in remastered are closer to what the producers originally wanted. No way of knowing. Sure, Justman gave his blessing, but that doesn't mean the specifics of the shots are closer to the original intent. After all, as has been pointed out numerous times, some of the remastered effects and other fixes actually introduced other errors.
  3. Re Spockboy's impressive CGI replacement of the bridge as a model of how far they could go. Interesting but utterly impractical.
  4. Finally, the big fault of the remastered effects is that they frequently demonstrate that the new effects team didn't understand basic cinematography. Example: the battle sequence in Elaan of Troyius is a complete mess in terms of basic (and I mean Film Composition 101) directional continuity.
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Old April 20 2013, 01:35 AM   #125
Gojira
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Gojira wrote: View Post
I really Enjoy TOS-R and I don't think they went far enough at times. All in all I do like what they have done.

I wish they had gone this far...http://vimeo.com/12023417
Would be impressive to see an episode redone in that style. Though I would think redoing the whole series would be prohibitively expensive.
One episode would be good but I do like to dream that they would redo the whole series that way.
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Old April 20 2013, 01:40 AM   #126
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Gojira wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Gojira wrote: View Post
I really Enjoy TOS-R and I don't think they went far enough at times. All in all I do like what they have done.

I wish they had gone this far...http://vimeo.com/12023417
Would be impressive to see an episode redone in that style. Though I would think redoing the whole series would be prohibitively expensive.
One episode would be good but I do like to dream that they would redo the whole series that way.
I don't know...

The TOS bridge is like my Grandma's kitchen. I have a ton of fond memories of it and can't imagine it being any different.
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Old April 20 2013, 01:52 AM   #127
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

An argument is often made that the original creators would have done this or that given better resources such as exist today. Well there's no real way to know what they would have done. And given their perspectives during the '60s there's a damn good chance their choices (with better resources) could have been quite different than what was done with TOS-R simply because they wouldn't have been influenced by forty years of subsequent modern sic-fi in film and television as well as Trek spin-off films and TV series.

Jefferies may have given his blessing, but he too was influenced by the intervening years. No one can know what choices he might have made if better resources had been available in 1964-69.
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Old April 20 2013, 02:02 AM   #128
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

By that same logic, we don't know that the choices made by the Robert Wise of 2001 would've been made by the Robert Wise of 1979 regarding The Motion Picture: Director's Edition.

I'm just not offended by someone making changes to entertainment. It doesn't mean I have to agree with every choice (or any) that they make because those tinkering can easily make poor choices from my perspective.

But when we lock something down, we essentially assign it to the dustbin of history. By doing the new effects CBS-D introduced the show to a new generation of viewers and generated discussion among those who had already seen the show multiple times.
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Old April 20 2013, 02:22 AM   #129
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

Well, there's no proof that the new effects introduced the show to a new generation since there's no way of doing an A-B test to see how many people would have discovered it otherwise. And since fans discuss everything, our discussing the effects is no measure of success.
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Old April 20 2013, 02:41 AM   #130
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Gojira wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Would be impressive to see an episode redone in that style. Though I would think redoing the whole series would be prohibitively expensive.
One episode would be good but I do like to dream that they would redo the whole series that way.
I don't know...

The TOS bridge is like my Grandma's kitchen. I have a ton of fond memories of it and can't imagine it being any different.

I have the original series on DVD and I can go watch them anytime. So after 40 years of watching it I would not mind seeing an even more "modern" remastered look.
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Old April 20 2013, 03:29 AM   #131
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

I want an interactive, immersive, holographic version of TOS where I can smell the sweet, honey-like odor of the "Obsession" cloud creature. Also, i want my chair to shake when the bridge explodes.

Of course, I still can watch my VHS copies of TOS on my American-made 16-inch RCA color television set, just as they were intended to be watched! I'd rather go out about 50 light years into space so that I can intercept the original TV signals, but that's not possible yet. Then I'll be happy.
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Old April 20 2013, 03:30 AM   #132
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
CHANGING THE LOOK OF THE UNIVERSE IS COSMETIC?

For Q maybe.
Of course it is. It has no impact whatsoever on the story if the S.S. Aurora looks as it did in TOS or TOS-R.
It has one helluva impact -- wholly negative -- when you cut from live-action to what looks like a cartoon outside the ship, which is the net effect of most TOS-R I've squinted at. There isn't even the slightest attempt to create levels of contrast that would tie in with the way cameras saw physical objects -- actors or set walls or ship miniatures -- hence the total disconnect.

But you clearly can't see that. Too put out by some matte lines and film grain and other aspects that put the VFX squarely (and appropriately) in the same era as the live-action, I guess.
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Old April 20 2013, 03:40 AM   #133
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
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Unless your alteration is a legit parody, you are diminishing the original by subjecting it to change that was not intended by the makers.
Say for argument's sake somebody decides Spock shouldn't die at the end of TWOK. Well, you could run the shot of him going through the revolving door in reverse to show him exiting successfully after mixing all the crap, then dub over McCoy saying "it's that green blood of his" from OBSESSION and voila, different movie. You go to Kirk & his kid in his quarters after showing the burial ceremony (a voiceover indicating it is for Peter Preston) and you're done. You've destroyed and distorted all the resonances and what made it work in the first place, and so even if you say the original is still there, you have diminished it.
So when Lucas decided to re-do some the effects for the original SW trilogy, thats ok? (Note: I have no issue with the changes)

FX is a balancing act between what you want and what you can afford. So perhaps for some of TOS-R we got the FX they wanted had they the time & money to do.
If you consider the spec eds of SW to be parody, then I guess it is okay. I think the changes are bad, but I don't care enough about STAR WARS to raise more than the occasional stink about it, though it troubles me that STAR WARS was a film selected for 'preservation' -- and yet the originals (or something fairly close to them) that are available for viewing now are limited to DVDs that are just copies of THX laserdiscs.
(if I'm wrong about that, if they've issued a new set of 'original' versions for BR, please correct me.)

The retcon thinking associated with, 'this is what they would have done if they had more money or more time' is as much a matter of revisionism as truth, probably moreso. The changes Wise indicated he wanted to make in TMP in the year or two after it released don't correspond with the changes that turn up in the alleged director's edtiion, even though that was promoted (and largely accepted) as 'this is what he would have done if he had the time.' It is much more likely this is SharpLineArts' vision of what TMP was supposed to be, though it incorporated some more mundane continuity bits that Wise DID ask for.

Wise DID have the time on the original TMP to keep Matt Yuricich's original Vulcan matte painting, which was tons better than what went into the theatrical version OR the cutgame looking thing cobbled together for the DVD DE ... but he apparently chose not to include it, god knows why.

Except for the occasional total misfire FX-wise on TOS (TOMORROW IS YESTERDAY is I guess the prime example), I don't think there's a lot of ship VFX that really would have benefitted from tons more money being thrown at them. Maybe reshooting some ship passes so there wasn't the really bad bleedthrough or chattering on the mattes, but shoot, if those were really bothersome they could have used other shots (like those near-perfect close shots of the ship pivoting that really show the nacelle caps to glowing effect.)
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Old April 20 2013, 04:37 AM   #134
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

King Daniel wrote: View Post
Lenny Nurdbol wrote: View Post
The Aurora Class (NCC-C1200) space cruiser is an integral component of Treknical history... She's been thoroughly blueprinted and, in fact, is probably one of the most detailed and researched 2-sheeter ever...
An Aurora even appears in the hangar cutaway of the Durance class cargo/tug booklet of general plans...

Some of us fans take these little "throwaway scraps" far more seriously than other more "casual" fans...
To some of us, Star Trek IS a sacred, religious relic...
But those are fanzines! Made by fans who never had any connection to Star Trek beyond watching and enjoying it. It's like complaining that Kraith or other famous fanzine stories were ignored and contradicted. Please explain to me why sheets of fan-made diagrams be considered sacred when fan-written stories aren't?
Because these "fanzines" (not really what I'm talking about, but discrete blueprint packs) expanded upon--built upon--the little genre known as Tech Fandom... This is the legacy of Franz Joseph & Friends... Pushing the envelope of analyzing and blueprinting everything that ever was in Star Trek... Taking this universe as though it were plausible and scientifically sound and real... But I of course can't expect the uninitiated to possibly understand...

Don't talk to me about fans who never had any connection... I say this for 2 reasons:

First, anyone serious enough and talented enough in drafting and blueprinting can analyze things and put 2 and 2 together... And draw and make assumptions and Build upon previous works and Extrapolate from previous works... They don't have to be "blessed" by Gene Roddenberry or any other deity connected to the show; they simply have to be able to Do Their Homework Right...
I can also talk about another fan who spent years reading and re-reading hundreds of Trek books and Documenting tiny bits of trivia for inclusion in a massive timeline... He wasn't "blessed" either, just a Fan... But he did his work well...

Secondly, and this is really obvious... The blind worship of anyone who takes the center seat... Let me throw some names around here: J.J. Abrams, Roberto Orci, and Alex Kurtzman... It took the combined intellect of these kids to create something which no man has ever created before, and I think you have a good idea of what I'm talking about... Basically, the least talented persons together in the right place and the right time--and with NO qualifications whatsoever or even a liking of Star Trek (half of them weren't even Born when TOS first aired)...
I'd sooner see Kraith and other old zine series become elevated to something worthy of being filmed or cataloged long before I give this trio any credit...
You see, there's a big freaking difference here: the people who did Kraith were Fans and it was a work of Love trying to flesh out a background for Vulcans and Surak's Construct... Oh, and yeah, they Did have some contact with deities--D.C. Fontana was one... The trio I mention above are nothing but talentless hack kids who'd just as well make Transformers 4 thru 40 and cash-in on every cent they can wring out of robo-brained fan tots... Now read my lips: They Do Not Understand Science Fiction... The closest they get to SF is Comic Books... They've no love for Trek--it's just the latest and greatest cash cow that's fallen into their lucky laps to fuel their millionaire lifestyles!
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Old April 20 2013, 04:52 AM   #135
Lenny Nurdbol
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Re: How Far Should TOS-R Have Gone?

BillJ wrote: View Post
I'm curious what poor Greg Cox did in The Rings of Time? He seems like a pretty hardcore Trekkie and I thought the books was quite good.
Really the wrong thread to discuss it... I agree with you that Greg Cox is an above-average Trek writer (too much in the "continuty porn" department for my taste though--Not the problem with this particular book though!), but "Rings" was So far off the beaten path of his style of writing that I'm almost convinced that he had someone ghostwrite that thing... Starts out promising (and I was hoping there'd be a nice temporal twist--boy was I let down!) but by the time you realize there's only a few pages left and there's no way to satisfactorily conclude it, he makes a sharp turn and disappoints...
(I'm talking about something just short of It-was-all-a-dream kinda thing, for Gene's sake!)

Basically I got the impression that this was to be a Much longer, better novel and he just ran out of time, or effort, or something and said screw-it, and decided to whip up a hair-brained conclusion in 10 minutes out of thin air and be done with it...

It's unquestionably Cox's worst Trek novel of all-time...
Very disappointing...

Rates right up there with a first-time Trek author's work from the previous year... Forgot the title of it... A Treknical award-winner though for featuring cameos from just about every crewmember on the Enterprise, all 400 of them (or it certainly Read that way!)...and contained such brilliant logic such as relocating the Bridge to Sickbay!
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