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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old April 19 2013, 12:54 PM   #121
BillJ
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

MacLeod wrote: View Post
To borrow a quote from History.

"Well, when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal."

So just because someone/thing sings off on something, doesn't automatically make it legal.
If the orders came from the Federation Council, it means a majority of members likely voted to move the Ba'ku.
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Old April 19 2013, 01:34 PM   #122
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

BillJ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
To borrow a quote from History.

"Well, when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal."

So just because someone/thing sings off on something, doesn't automatically make it legal.
If the orders came from the Federation Council, it means a majority of members likely voted to move the Ba'ku.
Or that the council just authorized Dougherty to negotiate with the Ba'ku on the subject and Ru'afo somehow convinced him just flat out move them as a time saving measure. That might explain why it didn't take Riker long to convince them to review the decision, of course their so called allies shooting at their flagship in an unprovoked attack might have also had something to do with it.
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Old April 19 2013, 03:48 PM   #123
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

All this is making me wish we had more information on Dougherty so that we were better informed as to his character and motivations. It's unlcear to me whether he just let himself get caught up in events in this case, or whether he was always a corruptible jerk. There's also the question of whether and how much he was involved with S31.

It's hard for me to believe he'd have lied to Picard about the nature of the situation at least until the point where he could be sure Picard couldn't immediately verify things with Starfleet.
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Old April 19 2013, 04:15 PM   #124
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

DonIago wrote: View Post
All this is making me wish we had more information on Dougherty so that we were better informed as to his character and motivations. It's unlcear to me whether he just let himself get caught up in events in this case, or whether he was always a corruptible jerk. There's also the question of whether and how much he was involved with S31.

It's hard for me to believe he'd have lied to Picard about the nature of the situation at least until the point where he could be sure Picard couldn't immediately verify things with Starfleet.

Dougherty's motives are very clearly to help the Federation. Picard's motives are very clearly to get in Anij's pants.
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Old April 19 2013, 04:17 PM   #125
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

I love how if someone is supposedly corrupt they HAVE to be in Section 31.
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Old April 19 2013, 05:56 PM   #126
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

BillJ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
To borrow a quote from History.

"Well, when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal."

So just because someone/thing sings off on something, doesn't automatically make it legal.
If the orders came from the Federation Council, it means a majority of members likely voted to move the Ba'ku.
So the Federation council just decided that Starfleet should ignore General Order Number One (aka the Prime Directive) you know the one that says don't interfer with other species. Guess what moving them is interferring.
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Old April 19 2013, 06:00 PM   #127
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

MacLeod wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
To borrow a quote from History.

"Well, when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal."

So just because someone/thing sings off on something, doesn't automatically make it legal.
If the orders came from the Federation Council, it means a majority of members likely voted to move the Ba'ku.
So the Federation council just decided that Starfleet should ignore General Order Number One (aka the Prime Directive) you know the one that says don't interfer with other species. Guess what moving them is interferring.
Why shouldn't they? Every Starfleet captain we've seen has ignored it whenever it suits them. Unless an innocent race is about to be annihilated by a natural disaster, then it's hands off!
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Old April 19 2013, 06:31 PM   #128
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

MacLeod wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
To borrow a quote from History.

"Well, when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal."

So just because someone/thing sings off on something, doesn't automatically make it legal.
If the orders came from the Federation Council, it means a majority of members likely voted to move the Ba'ku.
So the Federation council just decided that Starfleet should ignore General Order Number One (aka the Prime Directive) you know the one that says don't interfer with other species. Guess what moving them is interferring.
Since General Order One was likely a guideline put in place by the civilian Federation government, I imagine that either there were exceptions built into it (there are 47 subsections according to Janeway) or they held a session and changed the parameters of the order.

Laws do change...
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Old April 19 2013, 06:55 PM   #129
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

R. Star wrote: View Post
I love how if someone is supposedly corrupt they HAVE to be in Section 31.
Don't look at me; it was brought up in the novels and I'm not sure I care for it myself.
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Old April 19 2013, 07:38 PM   #130
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

MacLeod wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
To borrow a quote from History.

"Well, when the President does it, that means that it is not illegal."

So just because someone/thing sings off on something, doesn't automatically make it legal.
If the orders came from the Federation Council, it means a majority of members likely voted to move the Ba'ku.
So the Federation council just decided that Starfleet should ignore General Order Number One (aka the Prime Directive) you know the one that says don't interfer with other species. Guess what moving them is interferring.

Dougherty OPENLY says in the movie that it's not a PD issue because the Baku aren't from that planet. They're not pre-contact or pre-warp either.

The PD has been interpreted so many different ways, and ignored so often, that it shouldn't be a guideline for anything.
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Old April 19 2013, 07:57 PM   #131
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

So it's ok for a government to just take something from you without compensation?
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Old April 19 2013, 09:07 PM   #132
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

MacLeod wrote: View Post
So it's ok for a government to just take something from you without compensation?

absolutist ethical questions devoid of context are usually meaningless.

I believe the Federation's actions in STIX were ethically "okay," BUT I do think they would have been a lot better had they negotiated with and offered compensation to the Baku.

Again though, the reason that option was NOT pursued is because the movie didn't want to give us a situation where the Baku refused to move or negotiate, and then Picard is left defending a group that the audience has little sympathy for.


The bottom line is that the premise was flawed to the core and needed to be re-thought.
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Old April 19 2013, 09:44 PM   #133
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

MacLeod wrote: View Post
So the Federation council just decided that Starfleet should ignore General Order Number One (aka the Prime Directive) you know the one that says don't interfer with other species.
If you look at the history of the Federation and Starfleet, this isn't that unusual. Other planets that would have been consider to have been under the prime directive have been "interacted with" before.

Eminiar (stipulated to be non-warp) was contact to establish a "treaty port." Treaty ports are areas that are open to foreign trade, are legally extra-territorial, and are removing from the control of the local government.

Janus Six, a mining facility was established to mine natural resources, no consideration was give to whether there was intelligent life there. When intelligent life was found, it was put to work digging for ore. No dialog as to the planet belonging to the indigenous Horta species, or the Humans leaving.

Kirk: " She and her children can do all the tunneling they want. Our people will remove the minerals, and each side will leave the other alone."


The Halkans were contacted by the Federation to so that the Federation could mine a natural resource (dilithium), the Halkans were not indicated to be a post-warp species.

Capella, the native people of that world were contacted by the Federation so that the Federation could mine a natural resource (topaline), the Capellan were obviously pre-warp.

The argument could be made that the prime directive by law doesn't apply when needed natural resources are involved.

Guess what moving them is interferring.
Moving them is what was going to keep the Baku from being killed by the harvesting process. If the particles could have been gathered without the process killing them, the Baku could have been left where they were in ignorance.


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Old April 19 2013, 10:31 PM   #134
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

^But the Federation had no right to move them in the first place. They weren't Federation members. They colonised the world before the Federation was founded. So the Ba'ku had first claim to the then unihabiated planet. It doesn't matter that the planet would later fall within Federation space, there are no doubt many inhabiated worlds within the region of space claimed by the Federation that aren't members, can the Federation just swoop onto an inhabiated planet and take what they want? Sounds something more like what the Romulans or Cardassians would do.
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Old April 19 2013, 10:55 PM   #135
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Re: Did Picard make the right decision with the Son'a/Baku

MacLeod wrote: View Post
They weren't Federation members. They colonised the world before the Federation was founded. So the Ba'ku had first claim to the then unihabiated planet. It doesn't matter that the planet would later fall within Federation space, there are no doubt many inhabiated worlds within the region of space claimed by the Federation that aren't members, can the Federation just swoop onto an inhabiated planet and take what they want?
Maybe, maybe not.

We know that two hundred years prior the Briar Patch belonged to the Klingons. If it belonged to them before the Ba'ku set down on the planet (which nothing in canon says one way or the other) and then that planet was given to the Federation for whatever reason, there would be continuous ownership of it by someone other than the Ba'ku.
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